Selamat Bradlee, H. Ibrahim never studied from embah Kahir. He studied Cimande from his brother In-law. Om Tristan
...And I know EXACTLY where THAT little piece of mis-information came from. grrr....! Wali, I have heard that story about almost every single style of silat I have practiced...Always the "counter to Cimande"...As if Cimande was the ultimate foodstuff of the universe. I am not trying to put down any Cimande practitioners, I have exerienced the Tari Kolot Kecer Mata ceremony in Cimande, near Bogor. I train Cimande myself. And yes, the arm conditioning is one stop short of imposed brutality, especially if you are the token "Bule" in the village. But I don't find it in any way superior to say, Harimau, or Cikalong. It's just a different approach, It has it's uses & it's drawbacks. The langkah is remarkable, but takes accurate timing to pull off. In pressed attacks, I see the arms used almost like shields in some cases. But I see lot's of weaknesses as well, and there are Silat styles that fill in the gaps way better than Cimande in lots of situations. Also, for something to be a "counter" to another style, wouldn't that mean you would have to be an absolute MASTER of that style in the first place? I mean, it seems pretty strange that you are making a system of silat based on the weaknesses of a system that you don't know very well. How would you know that it worked at all? But as I said, I've heard this with EVERYTHING regarding Silat, especially in Mande Muda & Sundanese Silat: Sera was a counter/offshoot of Cimande Cikalong was a counter to Cimande Syahbandar was a combination of Harimau and (Kari? something else) and was supposed to counter...Cimande I mean, if you fall for the cultural rumors, you would think that Cimande was a village peopled by uncuttable supermen. Hey Bradlee, I notice you use the Sunda "Maen Po" spelling as opposed to the Java "Main Po". Just curious, would "Ulin Cikalong" be more accurate, or are you trying to reference the old style of language, "Maen Po" as opposed to "Pencak"? Just wondering, my bahasa is imperfect & I get words confused sometimes. Bahasa Sunda is even more difficult.
That's right Om Tristan, I try to describe that before Rd. H. Ibrahim found Maenpo Cikalong, he learned Cimande in his family, and also from his brother in-law (Rd. Ateng Alimudin). Rd H. Ibrahim is a son of Rd. Radjadiredja, and Rd Radjadiredja is a son of Rd. Aria Cikalong (Rd. Aria Wiranagara). Aria Cikalong him self learned Cimande direct from Abah Khaer and famous as one of the best Student of Abah Khaer.
Hallo Kang Bobbe, kumaha damang? Yes, i'm trying to reference the old style of language, and also as a culture. As I know, only the Sundanese use the word Maenpo for his Pencak Silat style (Maenpo = Maen Po = Main Po, and Main isn't a Javanese Word, but Malay. Is it?). Ulin Cikalong would be more accurate if we talking about how the Elders try to hide his exercise. Usually they used "Ulin" or "Usik" if they order student to practice and don't want the other know. If we use words "ulin" or "usik" it's like we use term "Let's play" in English. Let's play can means... let's play Basketball... let's play soccer... let's play badminton... or even let's walking around the city. But, if the Elders use Maenpo, then they speak between the community. I hope that's clear. And Kang Bobbe? When were you last time in Indonesia? And I notice too that you've practice with Pak Dadang. Where's he now?
First of all, I'm not the authority in cimande or cikalong not even close... I knew a little. It was a myth to say that any silat system purpusely develop to counter the cimande system. Historically, pencak silat cimande was the first known or recognize by people of Java, Indonesia, and the world? Probably that's the reason why people talk about it. There is no fact, just an old gravevine, jinggo boistering at best. I was asked by many silat players about or how to harden the forearm or shin. Well, my teacher Pak Lek, never taught me or other 4 students to practice to harden our shin or forearm. "Its not a natural things" He said, "you will pay the price later on in your life!" He continue: "our silat is derive from weapon system, therefore, our objective is not to get hit or otherwise we will be wounded from the knife or parang. Each incoming strikes we should view that as a knife attacks. Move away or you get cut. Blocking is almost not existence in our system, we consider blocking by force is a symbol of murid baru, from blocking we learn how to deflect by combination of manuver our body and using hand to protect and finally we strive to do what we call to re-direct the incoming attack by merely touching and redirect the incoming strikes. What many silat students missing the point of learning martial arts are the very reason why we do this things. 1. The love of sport exercises or seni olah raga. 2. Deffensive technique priority: Not to get hit (forget about everything else, concentrate and study the moves so you "not to get hit") 3. Offensive technique priority: Hit the target.(It does not matter of how strong you are, how hard your punches and kicks are, if you do not hit the objective target, all of those things is useless) or you can impress your girlfriend at the very least. 4. Last but not least. Use the viable effort to avoid the fight, walk away or run....Sopan santun is the heart of silat. I can be wrong too, Tristan
I recall somthing like : Abah kahir worked for a Chinese man who was very harsh. One day Abah Kahir was taking a rest from the hard work when the Chinese man accused him of being lazy. A fight started and Abah Kahir ended up killing the Chinese man. When later asked what happened he said that he had forgotten himself (main poho). Later Main poho became Maenpo. Since we are talking about cimande, is it really the oldest of silat styles and the word Chi-mande means river mother or the source of a river if im correct (the origin of all other rivers????) However is there any relation between Cikalong and nampon style? It seems like they both put heavy emphasis on developing Rasa but does Cikalong make use of distance fighting or what Wali calls "Reksa deri". Wali, Is Reksa deri a young art like nampon or is it older? What are its roots or history?
Narrue, I have never heard that story, Abah Kahir is a Horse trader, later he was employed by menak Ciancur and spend the rest of his life in Kraton. Cikalong heavily influence by Cimande, bang Kari and Madi was the origin of rasa and tepal. Some of the Cikalong move was also influence by Syahbandar. But that was my little knowledge in Cikalong, Tristan
Narue, my appology! I think I remember now that I read that from text book by Ian Wilson that was given to me by Stevan Plinck. I've been trying to locate that text book, but I could not find it, someone went to my cave and steal it, i think! Abah Kahir have many jobs: baggage carrier, farmer, horse trader, etc. So it could be.... Just to let everyone know that Abah Kahir was not the founder of Cimande, he was the first to teach Cimande. According to Pak Lek, Abah Kahir studied with Embah Buyut. I can be wrong too, Tristan
Pak OJ, Was it Ian Wilson's thesis? I posted a link before, but here it is anyway http://wwwlib.murdoch.edu.au/adt/browse/view/adt-MU20040210.100853
Thanks for the info Bradlee, I appreciate it. When I say "Ulin" I usually refer it to mean "In the style of", for instance "Ulin Cimande" to me, means "The Cimande style". I last went to Indonesia two years ago & I am returning in two months. I haven't seen Dadang in a few years, I left Mande Muda after Ibu Rita took it over. I have no idea where he is or what he is doing. I train with Bambang now, as well as several other instructors...We're heading over to Bali this year as well, to meet a couple of Balinese stylists for a couple of weeks. Thanks again!
Offshoot Bobbe -- I think the idea that things were developed to deal with Tjimande makes perfect sense. It was arguably one of the oldest, if not the oldest style in West Java, and one of the largest in terms of players. If you were from another village nearby and had your own art, you had to figure you'd be apt to run into somebody sooner or later who knew Tjimande. If you'd seen them fight, you might start thinking about what you could do to counter them. Most effective arts do this -- they try to come up with ways of dealing with what they think they are most likely to run into. It's not that the Tjimande players were ipso factor unbeatable, only that there were enough of them who were good enough that you would be playing the percentages wisely to have an answer for what you knew they'd bring. How good your answer might be is something else, of course, but you wouldn't have be a master to come up with a couple of things to deal with the average player. If you know you are going to face a grappler, it would behoove you to figure out some ways to keep from going to the ground, unless that's a place where you feel comfortable. If a style favors a certain range -- long, or medium, say -- and you can get inside, you might negate their comfort zone and make it your own, hey?
Just read through some of this thesis again and its interesting to note that Abah Kahir was an expert in “Ulin Badui”. The Badui are of Indian origin if I remember correctly. What does that tell us about Cimande, could it have its origins in India? Could Abah Kahir have not been the founder of the art but the first outsider taught the art?
Yes, there are many version about Abah Khaer's life, it depends on the community who tell the story. Example, Pencak Silat Community in Parahyangan Timur (South East of West Java) believe that Abah Khaer was a trader, and learned the system from what his wife had saw in the river. Second version is from Banten Community, they say that Abah Khaer is Badui-man and his style developed from "Ulin Badui", Third Version is who say that Abah Khaer is a worker in Chinese Store, etc. Dr. Ian Wilson's Thesis is very good, but normal... its has mistakes too. Many community don't agree in one thing which came from the other. But i love to read that. Kang Bobbe (Kang = elder brother), Yes... i know that "ulin" now refers to "a style of", but what i mean in previous post was... in previous time, elders had made a difference in case how to cover the training. Ulin Cimande its self, especially for Sundanese, means a lot. It's a father of all style in West Java. (Besides Terumbu i thought). As i were a kinder, like the other family and other kinder... although we come from a family who train Cikalong, but still... as the basis, i learned Cimande. Traditionally, we never argue each other about what style is the best. Normally only a "jeger and preman (bandit)" who argue each other and fight in bus station to prove which style is the best. But time changes, especially after pencak open to the west, and people who can pencak think that they can get money from that, then we started to argue which style is the best, as we thought that being the best we will have many student, famous and rich. How pity...
Badui in India? No Kang Narrue, Badui is an old inhabitant in West Java, they speaks old Sundanese (a little bit different from current Sundanese language), and live as other Sundanese too. The different is only that they isolate they self. They engaged in farming for his self, not for business or money, they don't buy something outside the region, they don't speak about his life to outsiders (especially inner Badui), they wear only black clothing, black "bandana" (sunda = ikeut. Indonesia = ikat kepala) and black "sarung/sarong", etc. The Badui went to isolate his self after his great King (Prabu Siliwangi) dissapear. This is a prove of loyalty to his King. A Story about King Siliwangi and his Son is an old story about Pajajaran Kingdom. I'll tell this story sometimes.
Terima kasih GS! I'm still searching the hardcopy, though :bang: I turned the couch upside down, found only few pennies and old bag of chips but not the text book I checked under the bed..found only only an old underware..oh no, its not mine..its must be her...but who? Oh well, I got to get another cup of coffee. Tristan
I'm agree wholeheartly with Bradlee about the historic Cimande or Tjimande. I know he is the original guy and I think my shallow silat experience have something in common with his silat, may be The above quote was very profound, If I may say. As far as being rich? I don't know Bradlee, the few silat players that I have befriended, none of them becomes rich materialisticly from Silat, their richness is having large friends and extended family. So they are few of us still practice the old way. About the meanng of "preman" I think, Mas Bradlee simplified interpretation "Preman" is "Bandit". IMHO, that's not the real meaning, though Preman is somekind of bully, or a petty street bully in a way. Hanging around in front of the stores or street corner, got no real jobs, some of sell some cheap stuff, some of them a petty thiefs. They were mostly coming from low class people. But, the word preman is usually used by parents to describe their son's friends. My neighbor used to tell their son not to associate with me, because they are affraid that their son becomes a preman. I don't know why? I was not one the above? I must admit I was a Bandel kid. Soft hearted Bully I proclaimed And we all lived in Kebayoran Baru. Which is most the upper class lived. So preman in an upperclass family becomes a common word to use for jokes, and seriously not to be taken. Just like in the USA, bad can have two meanings Its depends how you say it. And I could be wrong too, Tristan
Tristan, You can print yourself a new copy from here! http://wwwlib.murdoch.edu.au/adt/pubfiles/adt-MU20040210.100853/04chapter2.pdf
