Jago vs Guru Peace to all, Mas Tristan, sadly what I say is true. Check http://menkslek.tripod.com and srcoll down to the article titled "Melacak Akar Konflik Antar Perguruan Silat di Karisidenan Madiun" and you will get a more authorotative picture. If you find some key words and google around using them you might get an even better picture. Jawapos.com has a very regional news section where you can read about the rural areas as well. The fights are not conducted using silat moves and are nothing to watch and the casuallities are usually the residents houses, glass windows and terracotta roof tiles from stone throwing. Seen a New Order political campaign mob on trucks and motorbikes? It is that sort of crowd that goes beserck. Karate and Taekwondo and now also Wushu are popular in the cities of Indonesia but in the rural regions pencak silat is still what people do. My village is in the Madiun region and in my village there are Pagar Nusa, Cempaka Putih, SH Terate, and Kera Sakti. And there is not one 'foreign' martial arts school at all. I agree with you, Mas Tristan, that things like belts and uniforms are a modern addition to Pencak Silat taken from not only the Japanese, but also in dialogue with the Government of the Netherlands East Indies where the skills of pendekars were used by the powers that be and the ideas of modern organisations began to grow. The birth of the first more modernly organized silat school in Indonesia was in the second decade of the 20th century, following the first Traders Union: the beginning of Setia Hati. From reading posts on the web it would seem that although the people who brought Serak were able fighters and pendekars, they were maybe still at the level of a jago and were not yet at the maturity of someone called a Guru, who according to Jawanese, must be digugu lan ditiru meaning worthy of being trusted and also being copied. A jago is an expert, someone who has amazing technical skills and is able to execute them again and again. Often a jago is feared and in the colonial days they were often employed as foremen in the Dutch plantation industries. A Guru silat is a level higher than a jago and should also be a model of adab (civility) and sopan-santun (good manners) and not quarrel with people let alone with his family but rather he / she should always improve the condition of life in his / her immediate environment. Maybe I can say a Guru Silat must be a Jago who has a proven record of social, cultural and educational commitment on top of a knowledge of religion and/or spirituality. I am sure that there are good Guru silat of various races in the US, Mas Tristan: you are also one, I believe, tiyang Jawi. Warm salaams to all, KC
Karate and Taekwondo and now also Wushu are popular in the cities of Indonesia but in the rural regions pencak silat is still what people do. My village is in the Madiun region and in my village there are Pagar Nusa, Cempaka Putih, SH Terate, and Kera Sakti. And there is not one 'foreign' martial arts school at all. Matur suwun Kiai Carita, My appology, I thought they were a civil war going on in Indonesia, where thousands of silat practioners from one perguruan invaded another perguruan with machetes. I called my brother who lived in Jakarta, he said he never heard such of things. Now I understand what you are talking about. In the rural areas, things like that can happen. Considering the elements, situation, and environment. I agree with you, Mas Tristan, that things like belts and uniforms are a modern addition to Pencak Silat taken from not only the Japanese, but also in dialogue with the Government of the Netherlands East Indies where the skills of pendekars were used by the powers that be and the ideas of modern organisations began to grow. The birth of the first more modernly organized silat school in Indonesia was in the second decade of the 20th century, following the first Traders Union: the beginning of Setia Hati. I know we going to agree on something! From reading posts on the web it would seem that although the people who brought Serak were able fighters and pendekars, they were maybe still at the level of a jago and were not yet at the maturity of someone called a Guru, who according to Jawanese, must be digugu lan ditiru meaning worthy of being trusted and also being copied. A jago is an expert, someone who has amazing technical skills and is able to execute them again and again. Yes, yes! This is that I've been trying to tell everyone in the USA. I've been teaching over three decades and I forbid my students to call me Guru. But yet many silat player call themselve a Guru Besar or Maha Guru. I think it is a matter of perceptions. Indonesian born like us, interpreted the word Guru different than people in the west. They only translate the word Guru means teacher, therefore, some of them feel unworthy to be called guru after teaching so many years. So they called themselves Maha Guru or Guru Besar. For us, it was unimaginable acts, my silat teacher and his silat teacher have been in the arts all their life, Pak Lek is 86 years old. They never call themself a guru. But again is only our opinion, and they entittle to their own opinion, eventhough they are using Silat Indonesian origin. NO biggie here. I have to assure you and everyone that I'm not a guru. Makan gak makan asal kumpul! Tristan
Indonesian born like us, interpreted the word Guru different than people in the west. They only translate the word Guru means teacher,[/QUOTE] Hi Tristan, Not all westeners have this perception. In the system I practice, there is only one guru, and she alone holds the title. The rest of us are her students, regardless of how good/bad we are at silat. It's as simple as that for us. Cheers, Wali
What's in a Name? Ah, but here is the problem: Those of us who were born in the west have a foot in two camps. As Americans, we speak our language -- most of us in the U.S. are okay with English -- but many of the first-generation teachers of eastern martial arts did not speak that tonguje very well when they arrived here. So they used their terminology -- sapu, beset, dalam, guru -- when trying to explain things to their students. Not having Bahasa Indonesian or Javanese or Malay, a lot of times Americans either misheard or misunderstood. I recall the first article in Black Belt about silat I could find, and the reporter called the art "Bukulan." As I understand the history, the term "Pentjak Silat" itself has only been around for sixty or seventy years; before it, the art was called a whole bunch of other things. The word "guru" is also used in India, where it is more often meant as "teacher," and was in common use for yoga and meditation instructors before silat became known to any degree in the U.S. I suspect that eventually, much of what is taught in karate or judo or silat will become more Americanized and many Japanese or Indonesian or Malay words will fade. Sapu or beset will become sweep or foot-drag. The honorific of "Guru" for one's teacher is not really different from "Sensei," or "Sifu" or other traditional martial arts terms. Adding "Maha," which can mean several things to Indonesians, among them "great" to show respect? I don't see anything wrong with that. My teacher doesn't call himself "Maha Guru," but I do in public. Nobody made me do so, I decided that on my own. Compared to some teachers, I feel he is great, and I am happy to let people know that. If you are okay with somebody calling you "teacher," then "guru" ought not to be a problem generally, unless your custom forbids it. In the west, there generally is not any such prohibition. In our system, there is only one Pendekar, that title reserved for the style's lineage holder, and I'm guessing that is going to go away, too, given that the lineage after the current Pendekar passes is going to be something of a dead-end ...
I always took Guru to mean "teacher" nothing more or less, just as Steve says, like Sensei, or Sifu, or Guro. As for Maha Guru, I was told that it was akin to "Professor", indicating some level of "post graduate" work. It came to have a secondary connotation attributable to highly experienced teachers who went on to create their own synthesis or expression of the art(s), as embodied in their teaching structure (beyond mere personal flair). We also referred to this as a sort of super-Djurusan Combinase. So from my little corner of the world, Maha Guru might apply to Guru Victor, for the creation of Tongkat, Guru Bob Vanatta, for the creation of Bledek, and Guru Plinck for his continuing unique contibutions to Serak (such that we recognize it). Guys like Guru Cliff Stewart, for his L.A. Kilat, or Guro Ken Pannell for Sikal, etc. Admittedly these are all American examples, and to my hearing, only one of the people I cited above has ever demanded to be addressed as such. There are a couple of others who would fit this description, but maybe in their example the naming convention falls a little short, as they are already accustomed to being referred to as Pendekars.
Oh oh, the can of worms has been re-opened Here we go again! The word guru is indeed of sanskrit origin and the most literal translation is 'bringer of light'. So from an American perspective it's all very simple. Guru = Teacher. "I teach (or have been given authority to teach), therefore I am a Guru". English, but particularly the American use of English, is very explicit where meaning is concerned. Now in Indonesia things are not so cut and dry. Things can be very implicit. A direct and concise meaning is not always apparent. It's got a lot to do with both physical and social context. So calling oneself 'Maha Guru' would be considered very improper, even kasar, at least a bit GR! So it seems to me there will always be a problem with interpretation and cultural context with this one. We do seem to be locked in an endless circular arguement . With regard to terminology, I personally, would hate to see the original terms replaced with English ones. I feel that we would lose something by that. I feel that using terms such as sapu add to the learning experience and add context and meaning. This in turn seems to give things more er...power I suppose. But that's just me Finally, I call my teacher by his name. Although, he holds many high level certificates and ranks in a number of arts, we have never discussed this. Neither have we discussed terms like Guru etc.
The honorific of "Guru" for one's teacher is not really different from "Sensei," or "Sifu" or other traditional martial arts terms. Adding "Maha," which can mean several things to Indonesians, among them "great" to show respect? I don't see anything wrong with that. My teacher doesn't call himself "Maha Guru," but I do in public. Nobody made me do so, I decided that on my own. Compared to some teachers, I feel he is great, and I am happy to let people know that. If you are okay with somebody calling you "teacher," then "guru" ought not to be a problem generally, unless your custom forbids it. In the west, there generally is not any such prohibition. Brother Steve, I respectfully disagree, but its okay, though. Eventhough I've been in the USA since 1968, I still hold the meaning Guru diffrent than you or Tuan Kaki and the rest of silat platyers. A guru title is earned not given or issued. If a students out of respect would like to call their teacher a Maha Guru and if the teacher accepted, than that is nothing wrong with that. I personally as a silat student would not accept those tittle. With all do respect, of course. In our system, there is only one Pendekar, that title reserved for the style's lineage holder, and I'm guessing that is going to go away, too, given that the lineage after the current Pendekar passes is going to be something of a dead-end I can't comment with the title Pendekar...is really out of my league. Cheers, Tristan
I think I'll bail out of this one before we get onto 'pusaka' I've a feeling this thread isn't over yet Selamat malam everyone
Names Well, okay, let's talk about terminlogy. This board is -- most of the time -- carried on in English. I suspect most of the posters have English or American English either as a first language, or a pretty good second one. So we use that tongue. And in doing so, the most common meanings of words in English are the ones we'll most likely use unless it is pointed out otherwise. "Guru" has different meanings, but in an English dictionary, it means teacher, usually connected to spiritual matters in Hinduism or Buddhism. It also means teacher of other things, the key word here being "teacher." The problem comes in when we use the English meaning, as opposed to the Malaysian or Indonesian meaning. Actually, if you have an Indonesian dictionary, the kamus doesn't really help, because mine says "guru" means "teacher," "mentor," "master." Hello? So now we are talking about idiomatic structure, in which a literal word or phrase actually means something else to a speaker of that language than the defintion. And, of course, the only way you can know such idioms is to be fluent in the language, and not just the root, but a locale. Mexican Spanish is not Castillian as spoken in Spain, or Cuban, or Central American when it comes to such idioms. Call somebody in Mexico a "flower-picker," it doesn't really mean that he picks flowers, it is a derogatory remark about his sexual preference. Refer to "los ping-pongs" in L.A. Spanglish, you aren't talking about a game with paddles, but somebody's family jewels. But, since "guru" is in common useage in this country as meaning "teacher," as are "sensei," and "sifu," even if that's not precisely what they mean, then it's something we have to live with. For years, I used to fight against the word "hopefully," which most people use incorrectly. If somebody asks you, "You think our team will win the game?" and you answer "Hopefully." that's wrong. What you mean is, "I hope." I gave it up, it was like bailing against the tide. And eventually it will come to mean that. English is polyglot, and words shift meaning all the time. "He was livid" does not mean he got red in the face. When I was a boy, "gay" mean happy. "He's a gay fellow." did not mean what it means when people say it today ...
Who is a true Guru? Is he the one that teaches worldly education? Is he one that that explores properties of matter? No, they are only teachers. Is one who teaches a manthra or Vedanata a Guru? No, we may call them Acharyas, not Gurus. People consider a person who imparts knowledge as a preceptor. But most of them are mere teachers, not preceptors (Gurus). A teacher who teaches others has had a teacher himself. The one who has no Guru above him is the true Guru. The true meaning of Guru is "one who dispels darkness of ignorance". "Gu" means "darkness of ignorance" and "Ru" means "one who removes". Another meaning for Guru is "One who reveals the Guri (target) to the disciple". He does this by removing the darkness of ignorance. Guri here refers to the Atmic principle present in every human being. The real Guru who can reveal the Atmic principle is a Jnaanamurthy (embodiment of wisdom); He is the very embodiment of Divine principles; and He is one who takes upon Himself a form to teach the same to the disciple; he is God Himself. Another meaning of the word Guru is "one who is beyond attributes and forms". Gu stands for Gunaatheetha - one who transcends the three Gunas (Satva, Rajas and Thamas); Ru stands for Rupavarjitha - one who is formless. The One who is beyond all attributes and forms is none other than the Supreme Self (the Brahmam) who is resident within each of us. Only God can be regarded as One who is beyond attributes and forms. Guru is Brahma, who is the Creator of the universe. Guru is Vishnu who is all pervasive and is also the Doer in the universe. Guru is Maheshvara who commands and ordains everything in the universe in the right manner. Guru is not one who merely teaches. A real Guru is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent, He is God Himself. There is only one Guru, that is God and there is no other Guru. We have to recognize Him as our only preceptor. He is the preceptor of preceptors. Realizing that God dwells within us, we must treat God as the universal Guru and the preceptor for mankind and contemplate on Him. Let us purify our hearts to let the Divine dwell in it. Let us install God, our Sadguru, in our hearts. The vibrations that emanate from from the heart will elevate us and confer Divine Wisdom on us. Bhagavan Baba
in bahasa, how does one refer to a teacher in general, such as a schoolteacher? i've asked some friends from surabaya this question, and they answered 'guru.' perhaps, in the context of silat, guru has more meaning. if you want to refer to someone as a teacher of silat, is there a way apart from 'guru silat' that avoids the implications? tim
guru and Guru Peace to all, In the Indonesian silat world the word guru does have more meaning. A Primary School teacher would be called a 'guru SD' and there would be little prestige except in rural areas for the word guru used to describe him. In a remote village, some might call Mr Suko the Primary teacher Guru Suko and that would be very respectful. In the silat world, the title guru is taken much more seriously and although it means the same, the meaning is heavier. In the silat world the title guru is usually reserved for the founders or leaders of a school. People who just teach silat but are not considered mature enough in other areas of life, are called 'pelatih silat' : silat trainers, even though they are technically guru silat, they would not be addressed by the general public as Guru. A Guru in the silat sense must be able to bring life to his environment. He must be able to sustain his pupils materially and spiritually and must be trustworthy too. And most important, becoming a Guru is not something one does oneself. A Guru exists because (s)he has pupils and it is the pupils and the general public who will give the title to the Guru. Warm salaams to all, Kiai Carita
I'm agree wholeheartly with Kiai, it is a normal for Indonesian born understood the meaning of guru in pencak silat. The issue here is about the tittle usage in the West. When someone asked us the meaning of Guru, instead of listening to us, since this is our culture, they don't. Instead, they don't want to hear it, and they started to tell us or preach of how and what the proper way to use the tittle Guru or Mahaguru. Is that odd or what? I can't figure that out. Tristan
Mate, if you can find any exact word for word translations in a kamus you'll be lucky. You usualy get a good 8 or 9 'sort of's' though. This is what I mean by implicit. It's often as much about the context as the word. These shifts can be very subtle. The meaning is dependant on circumstance. From personal experience I can tell you the scope for misunderstandings is endless. I have embarrassed myself with 'the right words' many times Ok, example. Look bajing up in a kamus. It's squirrel. Easy So, what does bajingan mean
And, of course, the word will mean exactly the same thing with just the same nuances wherever you go in that huge mass of islands. And everyone will use the same word for the same thing :bang:
Mas Gajah, Bajing means squirrel, but bajingan means ox-cart driver, although it is more commonly taken to mean scoundrel. Now, what is the meaning of bajing lompat? Warm salaams to all, KC
Mas Tristan's Silat ... Mas Tristan, Maybe, because of the imagined importance of tittles in silat, people who teach silat in the West sought to gain and use these exotic tittles for themselves for 'credibility'. This credibility is very important because these people are out to sell their silat in the Western MA-dojo market and many have been succesfull. And as accepting mistake in use of the tittles Guru, Maha Guru, Guru Besar, Pendekar Agung, and so on, is imagined to have negative effect on their credibility, they chose to be defensive and lecture about the correct use of the word instead. But of course they are mistakes. And making these linguistic-cultural mistakes should not mean that the silat offered is inferior. Just means you don't know the culture too deeply. Mas Tristan, I looked up your web page last night and really enjoyed watching your silat. As you say you have been in the USA since 1968 I might mention that there was one aspect that made me think : look, silat is evolving and getting a US flavor even in the hands of Orang Jawa! A light question for silat lovers: what aspect of Mas Tristan's silat as seen in the videos of his web-majalah, has been Americanised? Please forgive any misplaced words, Warm salaams and hormat to all, Kiai Carita.
Not to be Aguumentative, but ... Um, if this is in reference to my post on the matter, I respectfully disagree. My teacher shows a handful of students his art in the back of an unheated machine shop on a concrete floor. Very hot in the summer, very cold in the winter, and the roof leaks back there by the door. My instructor could tell us to call him "Buffalo Bob" and it wouldn't affect what he knows. What is important is what is on the floor. For us, all the rest is a distant second. He will, from time to time, take on new students. The newbies are almost always referred by current students. You have to know where we are, and you need to know somebody to even get there. I will stipulate that native Indonesians know more about their culture than I or most Americans do. But we aren't in Java, we are in the U.S. (those of us pointing out what we thing "guru" means, anyhow) and we use our native language and our experience to made do. "Guru," by the way, came from Sanskrit by way of Hindi and Punjabi, and its original meaning was "weighty," or "grave;" "venerable." Indonesians borrowed the term and caused it to mean something else, vis a vis silat, and we rude Americans are doing the same thing they did. The term (along with "Guro,")has been in use in the U.S. for at least forty years, in regard to silat, and longer in yoga and meditation circles. So I said, we might be doing it "wrong," but that ship has sailed. What it means here is not what it means there, and since we are here ... I've been calling my teacher "Guru" for ten years. It doesn't bother me, it doesn't bother him, and I'll leave it to Brother Tristan to offer what he thinks of Stevan Plinck insofar as his credibility ...
Mr Perry, As long as it is you who calls Mr Plinck, Guru; and not Mr Plinck who refers to himself as Guru, that is culturally correct. He is your Guru. To be called Guru (silat) by the general public though, usually one must have a proven track-record of 'social-work' such as in healing and leadership. I think that in your case you are using the word Guru in perfect cultural context . Warm salaams to all, KC
Brother Steve said:I've been calling my teacher "Guru" for ten years. It doesn't bother me, it doesn't bother him, and I'll leave it to Brother Tristan to offer what he thinks of Stevan Plinck insofar as his credibility ... ********************** I'm with Brother Stevan all the way! He is a brilliant silat player, a good teacher, straight talker, a good Sate maker, a fine guitar player, and most of all, a good human being. All I can say to his students, You are a lucky to have him as a silat teacher and friend. Stevan can be my wingman say to speak, anytime and anyplace, and he always welcome to my cave. Salam Kiai, The video clip that on my website is from a seminar the I gave at Bob Orlando school. It may not gave you the whole picture of what was introduce that day, am I being defensive here Bob Orlando is another fine silat player, slightly different mixture than silat I know, but yet fundamentally the same. His silat was heavily influenced by Kuntau/chinese origin. As far as being Americanised? Hmm, blamed it on the Old Silat Magazine Basically all the techniques are the same, the applications or the entry to apply the techniques are adjusted. The American have tendency to hit fast and hard, so you may have to give them a wake up call (a meaningfull hit or a control) otherwise you may be hit the floor before you can say: Mommy! Peace and Be Well, Tristan
