Just so I am not mistaking you, are you advocating that no pentjak silat instructors should commit the great and terrible sin of attempting to make a living using their knowledge in this modern world, or just the ones the you personally disagree with? You might look around and notice that we, at least those of us here in the country you and I share, do not live in small, collaborative villages where a gifting economy might thrive or even survive. If you are implying that Pak Vic’s pricing structure is remarkably higher than those of other martial artists of his or even lesser caliber, well then I suggest you take a more rational survey with a more realistic definition of “too much” other than “more than none.” OK, Ed that's what I meant. Why are you ducking the issues? The issue isn't Silat teachers making a living from teaching. The issue isn't even Victor's ability. The issue I have is called Truth In Advertising. How can you substantiate the claims that you made in your article? It all leads back to the truth. In one instance, what we are talking about here is teaching Martial arts to make a living. On the other, making outragous claims about "space craft blueprints" and history dating back "2500 years". How about just telling the truth? How about this; Hi, my name is Victor deThouars! I was born in Indonesia. Upon Indonesian independence, the Dutch were expelled, and my family had to return to the Netherlands. It was there that I learned this amazing martial art from my older brothers.They were all very gifted martial artists who learned this 'silat' from our Uncle, who I have been told is the lineage holder of this system. I was taught quite a bit by my one of my brothers, who is much older than me. I must tell you, he was a great fighter and posessed a tremendous understanding of this art. In the early 60's, my whole family decided to move to America in the hopes of prospering in a free-land with a booming economy. In America, I trained even more with this brother. As a matter of fact, he quickly made a name for himself in this new country with every martial artist he met. Over time he taught me the entire system as he knew it. I am very fortunate to be his brother. Upon my Uncle from Holland's passing, my older brother was named 'pendekar agung', and carried the lineage torch of this system.Since I was diligantly training ,and have aquired an amazing understanding myself, proudly my brother named me the 'maha guru' of this system. This is how I have become a teacher, and bearer of the Martial understanding known as Sera. With patience and dedication, I have the ability to guide a student through the entire system, from the basics all the way to the most complex and intricate understandings. Come see what we do. If you like it, and you are of good moral character, loyal, and dedicated, I will teach you in the ways in which my brother taught them to me. You too, can aquire the abilities if you listen and take notes, train very hard, and look for understanding in everything that you do. Why would you have to go any farther than that? Even though Paul and Victor parted ways, Paul did not strip Victor of everything that he learned. Why not just explain that he and his brother had a difference in opinion as to whether the art should be mass marketed to the public. Do you have to create a different source or lineage? How about letting your ability stand for itself? Do you have to create a fable about being in the military just to give yourself street cred? Even when your last name alone is associated with one of the higher level martial arts to even make to America? Can a few untruths snowball down hill to eventually create an avalanche? Apparently it has. Just look around at this thread. I was refered to Andrew's post, and all that followed, by a few other martial artists whose teacher was also jilted by yours. Do I have hard feelings? Abso-friggin-lutely!!! Is a "FORUM" not a place to have discusion and debate? According to you, it isn't. Is there a sign on the front door of MAP reading "do not argue with post authors, even if you have reason to believe they are wrong"? I'll peek into my magic mirror and dare to state that you read the recent posts very early Monday morning and spent the last day composing your defense. Pretty spooky that I knew that, huh? Kind of makes you think that I may be in the proverbial 'loop' of people that you are close to. My instructor was burned by your "great professor". He gave his loyalty, tenacity, and dedication to your school only to find 'half truths'. To learn that in the higher levels it is common to spend a lot of time bad mouthing former high level students. That is why I'm %*$$ed-off, Mr.Monyet, Ed, Bernie, whatever your name. Damn straight I'm mad! Then Andrew comes in promoting an article, which itself is already full of decieving statements that will potentially mislead a whole new generation of students. Sell the TRUTH! If you have a 1984 Chevy Caprice, don't slap Cadilac emblems on it, forge the title, and sell it as a 2006 CTS. If you do that, someone will catch your deception. Especially the people who were around in 1984 driving a Chevy Caprice. Although my style of writting is not as 'eloquent' as your's, or refined and professional as someone like Mr. Steve Perry, I still speak from the truth. A truth which I have developed a passion for, much like the passion little Andrew displayed at the very begining of this thing. You, whoever you are, defend these 'untruths' too. We have become advesaries through this medium. If you must persist in this vendetta, produce a hint of proof that I was wrong in any of the statements that I made. - Was Victor a United States Marine? -Does he have high-level degrees in Mechanical Engineering? -Did he learn his Sera from Tisari Mardjuki, and not Paul? -Is he really the only person in the USA qualified to judge if a person is worthy of teaching Serak? -Is he really deserving of the ownership of an Indonesian word describing an 'owl', or 'hoarse voice'? Or is he just an aggresive capitalist? -Did he fabricate stories of the Serak Lineage to demonstrate the seperation of himself, and the brothers who taught him so much and were opposed to him trying to "get rich" from something that was passed to them by their distinguished departed uncle? -Can you produce proof or actual historic references that the entire content of the April 06 IKF article in question is true? -Is the truth pertinate to a healthy teacher-student relationship? Is it true that he claims people such as the honorable Guru Stevan Plinck are the ones being misleading about Serak? Well? It's a public forum. Care to speak about what's true here? If it isn't the truth, you might as well market it as "fat-cat harimau". Well?
Serak and Silat Warm salaams to all, Wise words you wrote ther, Mas Tristan. I am writing this from Bogor, West Jawa, where I have been practising and talking to many senior silat players (aged 70+), including on the topic of Serak. A few things I would like to share here: 1. Serak is a 'Betawi aliran' and so far I have not met anyone who knows or claims to be the 'lineage holder' of the style. Betawi is a relatively new city, and goes back to the 16-17 century, so definitely if Serak is a Betawi aliran it can't be older than the ancient Badui people. Also, most Betawi culture is influenced by Chinese culture so Serak must have some Chinese influence as well. Serak actually relates to several villages (kampongs) in the Jakarta region, and as such, the word kampong also has Western roots (kamp). 2. To this day there are still many silat schools in Indonesia whose 'Guru Besar' do not make a living from teaching silat. In fact most don't, and we are not a gift economy. 3. There has never been known anyone who claims to be a Maha Guru in silat of any style here, neither has anyone ever been known to give that title to anyone. The word Maha is usually associated with God. 4. The fact that Serak has been patented in the USA is always shocking news to all silat elders that I have met here. It was not a very nice thing to do, neither was it respectfull, neither was it truthfull. 5. When I asked elders about the disticntive character of Serak, they say it is 'maen bawah' or 'plays low' which is something I don't see in the pictures of what is called Serak in the USA which do not seem to be using low kuda-kuda. The pictures on the web of Serak, to me, look more like kuntao. 6. The concepts Base-Angle-Levarage are unheard of here and must be a contribution from USA pendekars to the silat world. Personally I think that the B-A-L concepts are very usefull and I am gratefull that an American pendekar formulated them. However, I am not convinced that what you call Serak there is called Serak here. 7. The claims to be Serak are more unconvincing, especially as the people who brought the art to the USA can't seem to agree with eachother. Also the way these people bandy around the terms Maha Guru or Ustadz and so on, reflect the fact that they have only a little knowledge and hardly any feel for the Indonesian language, let alone the regional languages like Betawi, Sundanese or Jawanese. I suppose that is all I have to say. Obviousely you have an efficient art there, just maybe it might not be what it claims to be. Once again I would like to stress that Serak is an aliran, like cubism is an aliran in visual-arts. Now you would not expect Picaso or Ernst to copywrite cubism would you? Hormat and warm salaams to all, Kiai Carita.
Thanks for your informed perspective Kiai Carita. I don't study silat as of yet, though i have been looking for someone in my area who might be a worthy teacher. As you know, i was drawn to this forum for discussion on keris. This thread has left a very bad taste in my mouth for this art in America. But perhaps there is still hope out there. Do silat schools talk this way about each other in Indonesia? Maybe i need to come there to study.
The low kuda is something Westerners really have to work at. My teacher has been working it hard the last few months and has always told us "Get lower!" and "Your Silat is only as good as your legs." I think that one of the reasons you see higher stances from Sera/Serak/Serah/whatever players in the States is the problem with leg strength and hip flexibility. Another is that many of the senior practitioners have been forced to adopt higher positions in recent years because of age and traffic accidents. Students copy the teacher's movement. Older pictures and stories by my teacher about his early training show something a lot closer to the ground. Trademarking the name and proclaiming oneself the standard-bearer for a system is not something I would do, nor would either of my Silat teachers or any of their students. It has always struck us as extremely rude. Nope. We sit here in the upper left corner of the map. We're not the Supreme Ultimate anything. But I can say without undue pride or false modesty that we do a fair job of absorbing what we're taught and passing it on to others.
Salam Hormat everyone! Very informative Kiai, very good indeed I do agree with you wholehearty! My Uncle lived in Depok and my family lived in Kebayoran Baru, Jakarta. So Bogor is not far away from us My Uncle said: the low kuda-kuda is a must for practiced. The purpose is to build a strenght in the lower body. the lower the better. However, for pratical purpose, is not necessary. Meaning a situation will dictate how you will react and apply your techniques. And he could be wrong too, Tristan
In my humble opinion, the Kuda-Kuda forms an integral part of silat. If a silat system doesn't have it, then I would start to question other aspects of that art in terms of authenticity.
Nechesh, finding good Silat is like finding a good Keris, you know about that! I would not be put off. Who knows what you may uncover through the keris and its teachings and where it may bring you! “Do silat schools talk this way about each other in Indonesia” Most martial arts schools do, privately or publicly. In Indonesia probably privately unless they really wanted to test their Silat.
Wali said:In my humble opinion, the Kuda-Kuda forms an integral part of silat. If a silat system doesn't have it, then I would start to question other aspects of that art in terms of authenticity. ****************** I'm a beginer in silat...could you tell me why do you do kuda-kuda? What is the purpose? Thanking you in advance, Tristan
Why Can't We All Just Get Along? I can't say if all schools in Indonesia talk about each other this way , but during a lengthy correspondence with somebody who was trying to make a point about which we were debating, he quoted comments to me from some Javanese pendekars in which they were, um less than complimentary about other teachers of the same system. One teacher, who, according to one source was a fine fellow who ran a free clinic for children, was, according to another source, a liar who was probably on drugs. I expect that people in Java are like people everywhere else when it comes to pride, ego, humbleness, honest, or any other human trait. There is always going to be a mix. And given that some of the people about whom we have been discussing were born and raised in Indonesia, I think the point is self-evident. Silat is a fighting art, and sometimes it fosters as combative mind set. We are taught to avoid trouble when possible, but if sombody strikes us, we aren't shown how to offer them the other cheek, but to respond directly and decisively. If you sit and poke a stick into a fire ant hill, you ought be too surprised if the ant come out and sting you. One bad apple can start the entire barrel of apples toward rot. Ignoring that when you know it is there doesn't make it go away. If you would rather remain ignorant of it, that's fine, no problem. If you think things are better halfway around the world, I expect you might be surprised.
Phillip Zimbardo, the researcher who did the classic work on dehumanization, torture and prisons, put it more strongly "You can't be a sweet cucumber in a vinegar barrel."
Hi Tristan, The Kuda-Kuda is a base posture which develops extremelly strong legs. It's a good exercise to develop strength and endurance, as well as concentration. It also has many, many applications, and can be used both in defence and attack, under a variety of ways. It roots you to the ground, but likewise, it can root others also. There is a fight between Royce Gracie and a Japanese Judofighter (Yoshida), where the Japanese guy totally controlled Royce from the Kuda-Kuda position for the whole fight, and went on to win it. Here is a link to the fight for you to see... http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-601615499034099209&q=ufc Hope this helps a little! Wali
The Kuda-Kuda is a base posture which develops extremelly strong legs. It's a good exercise to develop strength and endurance, as well as concentration. It also has many, many applications, and can be used both in defence and attack, under a variety of ways. **************** I agree with you in general. IMHO, kuda-kuda is a preparation/persiapan. It can be use as a base/staging area for offensive and defensive application or just to secure your perimeter. You have to look yourself in the mirror when you are in kuda-kuda and ask yourselves, am I secure? What if? If you see a hole in your defense then go back to the drawing board, you may have to learn how to do kuda-kuda properly. And I can be wrong too, Tristan
Of course, if you always fight out of the same stance, same level it makes you predictable. There's a time and a place for almost everything including higher stances. Right now I've got a hip and knee injury that's taking a while to heal. Getting into a low kuda-kuda would make me a worse fighter for the next little while. There are also times when you just need to seize the moment and stop things fast. Taking the time to get into a certain stance or drop low would be detrimental then. What can you do? This stuff may be deceptively simple, but it sure isn't easy.
very well put tellner,but the shredding of the vdt and pac vic was bound to happen,,i just wish these thoughts were published in inside kung fu,or black belt,so that people outside of our small silat community would not get burned financially..has anyone thought about writing some of the major publications??
One Player at a Time Every time I have seen a magazine article about silat Sera(k) that had what looked to me to be mistakes in it, I have written to the editors to point them out. Generally, the editors are disposed to publish these letters. Not always. A full-out rant attacking somebody isn't likely to see print. Every art I've been around has disagreements, and broad pronouncements from one side or the other tend to get disregarded by folks who think it's all sour grapes. It makes more sense to try and reach people in a forum wherein somebody is asking questions or making comments that can be addressed specifically. People who are polarized and already on one side of the issue aren't likely to be swayed by comments from the other side. Newbies who don't know either stance might take the trouble to try and see both viewpoints before they make a choice that involves time and money. That would be my hope. He said this. I said that. Maybe somebody will check both statemenets and then come to an informed decision. I'm not claiming the path to truth and righteousness; only that I believe what I say is true, and I believe it will stand up to scrutiny when compared to what someone else claims. Me, I don't think this is unreasonable. A person looking to begin silat training who comes to a silat forum might need such information; somebody who is training in kung fu who happens across an article about silat in a magazine might find it interesting, but they don't have the same interest. Or need.
Peace to all, Nechesh, unfortunately in Indonesia some silat schools do biker and fight. In Madiun there is often an anual 'war' where tens of thousands of silat students run amock in a 'war' against a cousin school. Often the military and police can't stop them. Some sociologists have studied this phenomenon and found that the schools raise alot of money from new enrolments and they compete for students. There are, however, very good silat schools in Indonesia who have representatives in the USA. Guru Yana is son of Cimande who teaches Perisai Diri in the US. My school, PGB Bangau Putih is a respected school and has google-able schools scattered around the US and the US trainers are very good and dedicated. The bikering we see about Serak is more a reflection of the quality of the Pendekar who brought the art to the US. Maybe these people were not yet ready to become Gurus. There is a saying in Indonesia: menepuk air di dulang, basah muka sendiri : slap water in a tray, wet your own face...meaning that when you talk ill about your own family, you disgrace yourself too. It is sad that silat schools biker and fight, but at least in the US you don't have thousands of pesilats with machetes come after you for saying something unfavourable against their school. In alot of ways the US pesilat have more hormat towards civil society and the rule of law in comparisson to Indonesian pesilat, the majority of whom are from the villages. Nechesh, I hope this doesn't put you off silat as it is still the best self-defence art in the world. And it will so compliment your keris passion too. Warm Salaams to all, KC
Peace to all, Nechesh, unfortunately in Indonesia some silat schools do biker and fight. In Madiun there is often an anual 'war' where tens of thousands of silat students run amock in a 'war' against a cousin school. Often the military and police can't stop them. Some sociologists have studied this phenomenon and found that the schools raise alot of money from new enrolments and they compete for students. Really?????? I have not heard sort of things...ten thousand silat students fighting each other on the street? The casualty must be very high, huh? I don't know Kiai, when I went home to Indonesia, Karate and Tae Kwond Do school is in every corner of the street. Silat was not that popular at all. As a matter of facts, many silat teacher combined the silat with Karate and Tae Kwon Do, the ranks and the belts are also borrow from them. In my years of learning silat, I have never wore belts or shash. We just don't have it. There are, however, very good silat schools in Indonesia who have representatives in the USA. Guru Yana is son of Cimande who teaches Perisai Diri in the US. My school, PGB Bangau Putih is a respected school and has google-able schools scattered around the US and the US trainers are very good and dedicated. I also can vouch to American silat teachers...Some of them are very very good, solid, and knowledgable. And some of them are Wannabee. The bikering we see about Serak is more a reflection of the quality of the Pendekar who brought the art to the US. Maybe these people were not yet ready to become Gurus. There is a saying in Indonesia: menepuk air di dulang, basah muka sendiri : slap water in a tray, wet your own face...meaning that when you talk ill about your own family, you disgrace yourself too. Well, most serak teachers are Dutch-Indo from Holland, their Serak is originated from Indonesia. Again, I'm not going to bring back the skeleton here. But most of the Serak or Sera practitioner are good silat players. The sad things is that some of them do not practice what they have been preaching..the Adat and hormat or Sopan Santun. It is sad that silat schools biker and fight, but at least in the US you don't have thousands of pesilats with machetes come after you for saying something unfavourable against their school. In alot of ways the US pesilat have more hormat towards civil society and the rule of law in comparisson to Indonesian pesilat, the majority of whom are from the villages. I think westerner are more civiliazed and plust we have what we called a law suit. And most westerner do not carry machetes, they carry .45/3.57/9mm. A good stuff to stop people with machetes dead on their tracks. I'm still don't believe that in Indonesia, thousand of silat students fighting each other on the streets :bang: Nechesh, I hope this doesn't put you off silat as it is still the best self-defence art in the world. And it will so compliment your keris passion too. I'm not Nechesh, just a silat student who love the arts. Warm Salaams to all, KC[/QUOTE Likewise Kiai, Tristan
"A prophet is not without honor save in his own country." If it's popular and from far away I suppose people will buy it. The same thing is happening to the traditional martial arts of India. It's a tragedy and a crying shame. I just hope that Silat doesn't end up like a number of other cultural practices - preserved mostly by foreigners.
