Independents

I don't know how to quote a single post so I will repost this here. It is germane to the subject and asks an important question for those who are teaching without the right credentials. It was originally posted by Benkyoka on the New Club Video thread page 4:

Benkyoka

Quote:
Originally Posted by garth
And how do you know I havent.


Garth

I am going to rant so here is a warning to all: It may be long. It is also, most definitely, going to be rather harsh. Each time I read a post from Garth on these forums (nonsense about magic and archaeology not included [most times]) this rant appears in my head so now I am just going to get it out.

Garth,

We can surmise, based on your training background that you most probably have not been shown the proper way to use the kusari fundo, etc. In fact, I am going to go out on a limb here and say that you probably have not been shown the proper way to do anything.

Harsh, desho.

For the people on these forums who have had to read through your posts starting long ago, it is tiring.

Things prefaced with 'In this book', 'at a seminar', 'some notes I have here mention', 'if I recall correctly from some notes that a guy who may have possibly spoken to so-and-so at a seminar back when' (that last one is an exaggeration [but only slightly]), it is apparent that, due to your jumping around and going from one source to the next but not really fully committing yourself to any of them, that your knowledge regarding the takamatsuden arts is lacking greatly and you try to fill in blanks with tidbits of information you pick up here and there.

Because of this you haven't established a real teacher-student relationship with any (proper) source and have not shown any reason why you should be trusted with information that it has taken people who train directly under one person much dedication to acquire.

And it shows. Debates (by which I mean arguments) on this board have shown that there are a great many things you are mistaken about. Unfortunately, because you have no teacher, these mistakes don't get caught or corrected. Worst of all, these mistakes get passed on to your 'students'.

It shows in the video. Poor kamae, poor sabaki, poor maai. All are indicative of poorly understood fundamentals. If they were properly understood then they were poorly practiced.

But here is the most important part of my rant and it comes in the form of a question;

Why?

Why no teacher? (You will mention Norman here. Feel free to detail how you are 'learning' from Mr. Smithers. Seminars don't count.

Why no perserverance in sticking with one organization, teacher?

Why admit that you are not doing doing any 'one way', yet persist in trying to insert your (incorrect) ideas of what the takamatsuden martial arts into conversations.

Why do you wish to be a teacher (using these arts) when you are not qualified to do so?

Why the snide remarks about Hatsumi after you have (once again) joined his organization?

If your students are happy with your instruction (are they aware of the other options available to them?) why do we have to watch?

Do it properly, or don't to it at all. If you wish to do it half-assed don't get angry when people treat you like someone who half-asses things.

 

I am laughing so loudly in my office after re writing what I wrote.
Too early.
I'm just saying that I don't think it is just independents that are straying from the Takamatsuden. You just have to look from within the org to see that it is becoming watered down. To most dojo it is a legitamite link to the past when training within the confines of the org, however most movement would have been lost in translation.

But that being said I do know there are a select few that do get it, and they will make sure the tradition goes along.


Again, however this thread was a question.....not a debate.
If you are asking someones story it shouldn't be like fishing for an argument.

 

Sure, you are right, a lot of people even within the organization are way off the reservation(part of the reason I made the thread separating those into another group from those who are really learning the arts). So that shouldn't be an excuse for leaving, more of a reason to search deeper to get to the real art(if that is really why you joined in the first place). The people with Menkyo Kaiden and the Soke at least are maintaining and transmitting the arts. Again I will say that even within the organization, if you don't have a clue, you shouldn't be teaching. There is no excuse. Having said that, if having left yet one is still claiming to teach "ninjutsu" or something based on what you learned when you were in the organization, then they are still marketing yourself and whatever it is you teach on the back of the Bujinkan.

Reviewing the OP, you could say that we have gotten more in-depth in some ways, not necessarily off-topic. I guess if we are supposed to ignore when people write things that don't make sense or are illogical, this thread would have been a lot shorter.

 

I'm not going to respnd to Reality Please for several reasons.

1/ He's just fishing for an argument and its become too personal where he actually enjoys reveling in put down.

2/ I can't even make sense of one post he wrote

3/ He is quite happy to question me but quite unwilling to answer my questions.

But Just to put things into perspective I started training in this art in 1995 when it was called ninjutsu. The man I trained with was Peter Brown at the time a man that was well respected in this art and as well as probably being the first person in the UK to train in ninjutsu having trained alongside people like Sven Eric in Sweden, but achieved 4th dan in both Gebukan and Bujinkan.

It was from Peter that I learned Sanshin, Kihon Happo, etc. In fact I spent years training with Peter and eventually gained 2nd dan. But of course as an independant now I guess that what Peter had to offer was irrelevant.

I then joined the Genbukan when Peter did and continued to train with Peter and in Genbukan and gained 1st kyu. I was also given 1st dan and I call it honorary because I never had to test for it. Others have also been awarded rank without testing, but as I was given it without testing I call it honorary to differentiate it from those people that tested.

Forget about everything else, seminars, time in TSD etc. But from just this time alone I have stuff that I am still working on.

Now whilst I will agree that if you want to learn Bujinkan then the best place to be is in Japan. But i'm not interested in Bujinkan. Strangely though it seems that even if you leave the Bujinkan and do your own thing you are still judged against the standards or methods of the Bujinkan.

Why should this be?

Does the Bujinkan represent standards that all other organisations (Kan and independant) should be judged by?

Personally before we say they do or don't we have to think about how we judge any standards.

If standards are based on how well one can perform the techniques of the Takamatsuden, we have to ask how closely the techniques in the bujinkan mirror those taught by Takamatsu, or is it now Hatsumiden?

If standards are based on how well one can use the techniques in self protection we have to ask how many of the instructors (shihan) actually have experience in self protection or is it a case of virgins telling others how to have sex?

If standards are simply based on one doing the kata correctly we have to ask why there is no standardised way of doing the kata and indeed if the people who think the kata are everything whether they have missed the whole point of the lesson.

Further to this we could also argue that those people who are attending seminars and classes each week whether they are learning anything at all. Indeed this is one thing that appears constntly on forums, youtube and from visiting seminars is people that are showing amazingly complicated techniques with say a staff, or doing a nice henka but cannot do an ura gyakyu correctly.

And as I say this is something we see time and time again argued about on Forums amongst Bujinkan members.

Now it might be possible that everything that can be taught regarding the Takamatsuden (except the Gyokushin, kumogakure, gikan) has been taught or at least out in the public domain.

From my own point of view I have tons of notes to work on and have enough to keep me going for the next 30 years or more. in fact many of us have so much stuff that we are never going to master (or even learn) this stuff in a life time. But ever onwaard to the next class or seminar to add more notes to our boxes of notes where one day we will have time to actually practice what we learnt on a seminar 6 months ago.

Does this mean of course that one should stop learning?

Of course not, but I have always believed in the view that with this art you are not given a fish but taught how to fish. But the thing is that as soon as you go fishing you are criticised for going fishing on your own.

 

Do you have a certificate issued by Shoto Tanemura? If so, what does it say?

 

Thanks for answering the question Garth.

Regarding the people being given rank for going to Japan I have to tell you something. The first time I went to Japan I didn't get any rank. None was pushed upon me and I really was too busy taking it all in to pursue it myself. What makes you think you would get rank specifically?

I have seen a very few times where an existing Bujinkan member of already high rank was promoted during a visit. However I only knew about this because people close to the individual told me. Is it possible you had a preconception about rank being given out to random strangers based upon here say?

Now as regards to quality instruction, I have to agree that you are far more likely to get hands on experience with the Anshu of Toshindo than the Soke of the Bujinkan. But there are plenty of Japanese Shihan to visit and some of them will be kind enough to give you a quality bit of instruction. So I am afraid that you may have missed out on a tremendous opportunity. No offense to Anshu of course. Anyway, you made a decision, and it was yours to make so sorry to stick in my two penneth retrospectively.

 

Okay, in not responding by responding...I am not putting you down, just pointing out your logical fallacies and why what you are saying is often misleading. To those who are uninformed, you might come off as actually knowing something about Japanese martial arts.


To Markspada you said:

In your opinion, and six years in the Genbukan training with not only Shoto Tanemura(you weren't actually his student, just met at seminars or something right? Your wording is misleading) on a number of occasions but also training with his students during that time is not a pathetic involvement in a martial art(six years and as you say, an honorary shodan).

And how do you know that To-shin Do is not a Takamatsuden Art? Have you ever trained in TSD, trained with stephen K Hayes(as was pointed out, Hayes doesn't have Menkyo Kaiden, his name is off the board, and he hasn't trained with Hatsumi sensei in how many years?)?

After all the guy was one of the first(finally admitting he wasn't the first Westerner, good for you) and has been training a lot longer than you and unlike you has lived in Japan in the early days(no he wasn't there in the early days and he lived in Kyushu).

Funny, you posted:

In truth there is nothing wrong in questioning a held belief, there is a problem in defending a held belief when the belief is withoutany kind of evidence except the word of one man.

But when the one man is you I guess you feel differently. For now I will rest, your words are your own worst enemy.

 

If being independent means you learn something deeply then break with it to do your own thing, anyone who has something against you is probably jealous or blind to their organization or beliefs. Personally, I would say good for you. You have learned and grown to where your education isn't a crutch and has actually been applied. However, if being independent means you half learn an art, leave it while clinging to it for marketing, moral support, or whatever, while continuing to make fun of those still learning the art, then yes there is a problem with that. That really isn't being independent though afterall. It is manipulating your situation to your own benefit at the detriment of the art you left and is not very gentlemanly.

To be independent means you aren't still claiming the old art, as you are out of it(hence not dependent on it, ergo independent). This doesn't stop at the name, it includes the techniques, ranks you earned, etc. If an organization was so bad or wrong that you had to leave it, I can't understand why one would want to continue claiming it anyway. :dunno: Unless that is, there is a financial reason. The old art's attractiveness to prospective students is a strong lure to claim being fiercely independent while actually continuing to be dishonorably dependent.

Not much else to say on the issue.

 

Interesting point.

I am just waiting for an answer from Garth about the whole shodan thing he talked about. In the meantime, what if someone starts a thread in the general martial arts section and talk about why people start their own martial arts styles. It might be interesting to see the general reaction experienced martial artists here give to folks who start arts like "Hikendo" as compared to how they are received here.

 

Hey, check it out. It's a super cool refresher on what the OP had in mind. :hat:

 

OK got a little time wife at work and all that so lets try to answer some of RPs questions.

This of course is an excellent point IF and I say IF you are teaching Bujinkan. But what if your not interested in the Bujinkan method and teaching a different system?

Now you could argue that many independants are teaching off the back of the Bujinkan and therefore what is taught is bad Bujinkan and this would be a valid point. Except of course that although the independants may be teaching oni kudaki, musha dori etc, and the kata koku, renyo etc, it may just be that some of the independants see other ways of performing those techniques. Therfore whilst I’ll agree that the ways those techniques are performed are NOT Bujinkan method per se, it doesn’t follow that the way they are being done is wrong. They may only be wrong in comparison to the way that they are performed in the Bujinkan. That of course if there is standardised way to perform them in the Bujinkan in the first place.

Well that depends on what goods you are talking about. If you are talking about mastering the kihon, then you have to believe that every single person that starts up as an independent has never been taught the kihon to a decent level. And whilst that is almost certainly true for many in the Bujinkan, it doesn’t follow that people who have been members of other organisations that have syllabuses which cover the kihon, and testing to make sure the students knows those techniques well, haven’t learnt them.

Well what art are we talking about?

If you are saying Bujinkan, then you are absolutely correct. But it doesn’t follow that others who have a different take on the arts they were first taught are incorrect. You are actually working from a false dilemma or logical fallacy where in your view if Bujinkan is correct everyone else is wrong.

For the sake of argument lets take two friends walking down the street. Friend number one has had 20 years training the Bujinkan and continues to train to this day. His friend (friend number 2) started out in the Bujinkan but has for the past 10 yeasrs been a member of an independent group.

Suddenly from out of nowhere they are attacked by a group of knife wielding yobs. In the fight the Bujinkan guy gets stabbed twice whilst the independent guy survives to walk home or accompany his friend to hospital.

In this situation who was doing it correctly?

Now you might say that that would never happen in reality as if a person had trained for 20 years in the Bujinkan then they would never lose, but unfortunately we have seen 15th dans getting wooped by lower level MMA guys so invincibility is not a Bujinkan absolute.

And indeed what if both survived, could one say that the Bujinkan guy was doing correctly, but the indpendant guy was doing it incorrectly, even though both their techniques worked when it mattered?

Dont teach what?

If you are saying don’t teach Bujinkan then I absolutely agree that one should not teach Bujinkan if you have left the Bujinkan, i.e. claiming that what you are doing is Bujinkan when its not.

But if person A has left said organisation after say 10 years, does it follow that he shouldn’t be able to teach what he has learnt as long as he calls it something else?

Surely at this point the arts seperate like branches on a tree with Bujinkan going one way and the independant guy going another. Sure what one branch is doing is not the same as the other branch but it doesnt make either of them wrong.

Now to move onto this point that RP made

Well why should you be judging me from Bujinkan standards, especially as the Bujinkan is the organisation that I spent the least time in?

And why does the Bujinkan become the yardstick that everyone is judged by?

And does the bujinkan even stand for standards that everyone else should be judged by, because what I see unfortunately is a lack of standards, something that even many Bujinkan members will agree with me on this.

Well that is what I spent a good portion of the last 27 years studying. Now heres the thing, if you have spent 27 years lets say studying an art, either through classes or seminars and you create your own art is it not OK to mention your previous experience, or are you saying that one should not mention it at all?

For example if I had acheived a black belt in karate, and then started my own system of kickboxing calling it "Kickfit", would it be wrong to say that I have a background in Karate? even though some 10th dan karate guy would say that I shouldnt mention it because I'm claiming to be teaching Shotokan, even though the art is now different from Shotokan?

Of course not, in fact one could say that the claim by the shotokan karate 10th dan is ludicrous. But as far as I can see, this is exactly what you are trying to say.

So what your saying is that if you study any art associated with the Bujinkan and then start your own system you are not allowed to mention the fact that you learnt an art associated with the Bujinkan?

So as in my example above, Your saying that if one has prior experience in an art (Say shotokan Karate) , one shouldn't mention it because thats claiming to teach Shotokan karate, even though what they have done is given their art a completely different name that doesnt even mention the word "Karate" or "Shotokan" in it.

And how exactly are you setting up this method of mustering people? Because i'm sorry but being mustered by an organisation that is not known for quality, via a person who cannot give his name or teacher, actually doesn't mean a lot.

Yes techniques that I have been taught. Now you might think that I don’t know how to perform the techniques correctly, and of course that is your prerogative and opinion, based on nothing more of course than this forum. For we have never met nor trained together.

And which claims are you saying are false exactly?

You mention my marketing, and I guess your talking about my website, but it actually states on my website...

 

What is this 'Bujinkan Method' ?

Where is it stated that Classic Techniques and Kata cannot be applied to modern attacks?

 

I know brevity isn't one of your strong suits but let's try to keep it quick and concise. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Either you are independent as you like to claim, or you are still clinging to the Xkan's coattails, which is kind of obvious due to where you keep posting and the things you discuss.

 

Garth,
If you are finished going back and forth with RP as you say, can you answer my question now?

I asked the following.

Thanks in advance for your answer.

 

To Unholy (whoever you are)

My credentials have been talked about on this and other threads and I am done defending my credentials. if you visit my dojo you can see the certificates I have, or you can contact people who knew me when I was in the Genbukan.

 

So, you are saying you do not have an actual certificate of being a shodan in the Genbukan from Shoto Tanemura, correct?

 

If the attitude is that if you can't do, you teach, and there are 2000 plus teachers in the Bujinkan, then doesn't that mean that these people are teaching because they can't do?

And if they can't do, then aren't people going to pick up on this and want to leave? And don't the teachers (who can't do) teach their own style because they can't do what the head of the style is doing, the way he's doing it?

And if that's the case, then how do these people who can't do, who teach, who are teaching their own style, differ from the ones who left the organization to teach their own style? Is it simply because they're still part of the Bujinkan and the independent crowd isn't that's the problem?

And isn't that the same point the independents have been making?

:thinking:

 

Reality Please posted

So basically what your saying in a nutshell is that anyone who has built up an art whose background is primarily takumatsuden is trying to cash in on ninjutsu, even if they state that the have created IS NOT Ninjutsu.

So does this mean that anyone who has left the Bujinkan (or other X kan) to do their own thing based on the arts they learned is capitalising on the art?

And I guess if you believe they are, its something you will have to accept

And what is the proper way?

The Bujinkan way, The Genbukan way, The Jinenkan way, The Bujinkan way 20 years from now, or how it was done 20 years ago?

Your presuming again.

No but there are different types and styles of wheels.

How many people in the Bujinkan have learned the correct way? Even you claim that most havent learnt it.

Really! even if Hatsumi has stated that the arts should evolve.

"The water cycle of martial arts.
Darwin would also say: "Those that evolve survive"

You seem to be presuming that i've added something?

How do you know it works? have you actually used what you have been taught in a number of situations to test it out?

I hope you haven't lost site of the name of what I call my art. The idea with Hikendo is that we allow our opponents to believe they are winning when they are not, and when we strike it is not seen. In fact this is fundamental principle of the art, hense the name.

Unless your training against brute force (which I doubt) how do you know it works against brute force?

C'mon tell me something new, this idea of no speed and no power has been around since at least the early 80s

ep and kamae disapear and one internalises the moves, yes again something I don't know:bang:

Surely that depends on the Ryu ha you are studying?

OH please none of what you post is new, yet you post it like it some new Kuden your secret teacher has taught you. In fact i'm surprised that you didnt mention the ability to use the art of ninjutsu in everyday life as taijutsu is more than just a method of combat but of being able to see the strategies of the art in the way we function in the world around us.

Well guess if you cherry pick the comments by Mark Spada and Don you may come to tht decision, but not everyone thought thy were bad. But heres the thing. I have the guts to put something of myself on line, but you can't even say who you are or who your teacher is. For all i'm concerned you could be absolutely terrible when it comes to taijutsu.

Your opinion again.

And who is saaying they should be. Do compare myself to Doron, Manaka or Tanemura?

Of course not, for we are doing something totally different in approach.

well thats a little unfair as no one I knew when I was in the UK posts on this forum.

Lets get it correct. 1st Kyu (tested for and passed) which covers the kihon, and then allowed to jump to shodan without testing.

Tell me does everyone who reaches 4th dan in Bujinkan test for their grade or are they simply given out without testing?

WAIT. You say you don't see TSD as Takumatsuden yet you have posted...

Yet surely TSD is based on what Hatsumi taught Hayes before you or I even knew about the art?

Why then do you see what i do as copying the Takamatsuden yet with TSD you do not?

Ok lets for the sake of argument say that all I had been taught was incorrect techniques after attending classes/seminars I had attended by people who were students of Hatsumi or Hatsumi himself.

What does that say for the ability of Hatsumi and his students to pass on the correct techniques?

Discussed before, so i'm not going over old ground. But this is where i'm confused with your train of thought.

If I claim a grade i'm enhancing my CV for marketting purposes, and when i'm not you say i'm only a 2nd dan, honorary shodan.

And after all this I thought grade was not important and not an indicator of skill:bang:

I was never a chaser of grades, its that simple.

Err lets put that into perspective. 6-7 seminars with Mr Tanemura, one being a four day seminar (Two nights black belt training), lived in Telford where I trained with James Taylor almost on a daily basis for a number of months, attended seminars with Adrian Harrel, Nick Dinofrio at time 5th dan leader of the UK, about every 2-3 months when he taught seminars. Invited Ross Edwards up to Kettering when he returned from Japan and introduced Genbukan and trained with Peter Brown when he was teaching Genbukan as well as visits to other dojos in the Brighton area.

No never went to Japan. the big trips to Japan never happened till after i left the Genbukan, but yes I have sevaral years of experience. But this has been discussed before in anotehr thread.

yes you seem to have missed the point, but based on what you said I have faced and taken down knife wielding attackers. Have you?

it doesnt, i'm just saying that Bujinkan, because of this shouldn't maybe be seen as the yardstick that other organisations should be judged by.

I didn't. I was in the 1980s, and then not until a few years ago when I thought instead of looking at the Bujinkan through youtube videos I would go and train and get an impression from training with them.

You sure it was last year?

Really:hat:

Probably, but i'm not a fifteenth dan that trains with the best in Japan am I?

The problem is that if in ten years you left the Bujinkan to set up your own classes, regardless of whether you were still in the Bujinkan or not, the chances are that someone like you would be saying that you are not up to date with what is being taught in Japan, and therefore teaching incorrectly.

Well its not a problem for you is it because I would be teaching something that has no connection to what you do, which I thought was the point of your thread.

I'm not disagreeing that the Bujinkan standard is the Bujinkan standard, but the bujinkan standard is not the standard for everyone out there.

I'm not. the Bujinkan standard is there for all to see.

If you mean not being in the Organisation because of lack of standards you would be correct. After all you have to ask yourself why people who hold high grades like RVD and others are looked at being so bad in what they do.

And if you say that those people don't understand the techniques, why have they been given such a high grade?

And if you say that grades are meaningless why are you belittleing me because ? dont have a high grade?

Thats exactly it isn't it. You don't know. Your presuming once again.

Yes i would probably be worse:hat:

So are you saying that you have spoken to people that have met and trained with me (and I mean at my dojo where I can show what I do) or are you saying that because you havent heard from anyone about my ability that your assuming that I don't have any ability?

So based on this post i guess you can't answer.

yes there was a whole thread devoted to me and my credentials but you can hardly call that marketting

yes its down, see i'm not even marketting with my website anymore.

How can it show in the movement when clearly according to you I have no ability

Good because i'm not. And the chances are neither are you. try Hatsumiden.

Reagardless of how clear you have been about your background, without names what you post is without authenticity. Although I suspect that the reason you won't tell us who your teacher is, is because he has no real combat experience, which would mean that any claims about you learning stuff that works would be an empty claim.

Anyway RP I'm done with you. If you don't like what I do, then I guess its tough, and something you will lose more sleep over than me.

Anyway got to go, got a meeting on how I can expand the Hikendo Empire with Lunch boxes and Ninja Dolls for our new "ninja kids classes"

 

Fu Bag posted

Well put

 

I'm not sure if the following response is more relevant in the 'quality control' thread or here as it has elements aimed at both.

No matter what martial art it is, there will always be off shoots, amalgamations etc - ninpo is not any different as this is to do with human behaviour on the whole.

It seems that underneath all the furious flag waving, the main argument is that (in the main) people become independent because they believe that the Bujinkan is not capable of teaching realistic self defence for today's world. I would 100% agree with this statement. The Bujinkan has moved steadily away from those arts passed on by Takamatsu Sensei and has evolved/changed them into something, well...bizarre. But Mr. Hatsumi is well within his rights to do so as Soke. Today's Bujinkan is an all altogether different system than what was taught in the 70's. What exists nowadays may be based on them of course, but they are clearly different. Who can disagree?

However, to certain independents I would say that if true self defence is what you are after, then just ignore the Bujinkan - don't even discuss it with them anymore as they are poisoned - but don't go it alone either as you need solid grounding from a true master. There are other organisations that teach the arts of Takamatsu Sensei in their original and devastating form, this you know well. You just need to study and learn with patience. I think you must do this for yourself to find happiness.

Jamie.