Independents

Reading through this last page of posts, I kind of get the impression that if the will was there, there could be some kick butt Tai Kai's started up again in the future. Here's to hoping for a positive turnout to whatever the future holds.

 

ouch!! Don't hold back, just tell us what you really think! Lol

 

Really? I thought that there were some sempai in the US still? But I guess that 15 years puts you into that 10 year REALLY starting to TEACH category huh?

Just out of interest - what is your rank in relation to Mr Carbonaro?

 

Don't know too many. Mark Lithgow just did a seminar last weekend, but he is not sticking around. Shawn Grey is someday going to move back to Canada and there are a few others that will be back in their home countries in the next decades or so. It used to be you could count the amount of people that lived in Japan for over ten years on one hand. Soon the Bujinkan is going to see a lot more qualified teachers setting up shop back home.

I don't talk about my rank, since it really doesn't mean much as you have been pointing out.

 

Ah Ok sorry - I thought that you said that only now they have come back - as in 'already are back' as opposed to 'may or may not be returning back, or are popping in for a seminar'.

Thanks for taking note of my rank posts, I didn't think that anyone was.

As for the rest. Just here to help keep you honest chief.

 

Yes, I see. There are a few already living in their countries- like Ed Lomax. (Edit- and on the East Coast I know there is at least one guy with ten years experience in Japan by the name of Richard Maloof. There of course others.) But what I tried to say is now the numbers of people like that are starting to be enough to make a bit of a difference.

They are pretty good. IIRC, you yourself never have dropped mention of what rank you are.

 

Thanks, I am just going through a learning curve on this matter. I see a similarity with my point and you using an external, qualifying factor such as Mr Macyoung to justify the level of your training. Do you see the parallel?

Regarding these folk that return, some may have some things to share, some may not. My own experience of 2-3 years in Japan and training with a lot of the residents has left me thinking that whilst some have some great things to share some are very, very lacking.

One thing to clear up would be how you factor people like Jack into your comments - because I feel that you saying those folk who have lived there for a decade are really teaching is quite disrespectful to people like him (few as they are) which to be frank is the main reason why I called you out on the rank point.

If you want to talk numbers, sure, I'll tell you mine if you tell me yours, on here?

 

Agreed. Again it seems that some folks go to Japan to say they were in Japan and build up a resume rather than going to Japan because it has the best teachers still.

Then there are folks like Mark Lithgow who don't do seminar circuits, don't promote themselves and just go to class after class to actually learn. The folks like that are the ones I am excited about after they move back to their countries.

I understand your concern and I do have respect for him (we are talking about Hoban, right?) as a person. He is someone that teaches good, solid self defense skills. But I don't think he has gone through the schools as some of the folks I talk about have. If that sounds disrespectful, I understand your standing up for him.

 

Thank you for a nice and respectful answer. Indeed I do not agree with you, but now we are at a point of classic dissension.

Is the purpose of the Bujinkan to preserve and transmit Takumatsuden, or is it to learn and grow from Soke?

If Bujinkan is Hatsumi den, and you come back from Japan without Jugodan and a Gold Medal, and invites to lunch after training, are you coming back with Hatsumi den or Takamatsu den, and if you are coming back with Takamatsu den in 2011 are you coming back with something pure, or an image of what it could be?

 

All you need to do is look at Jack Hoban's old video series and ask yourself if he has fixed all the movement mistakes in that video or not?

 

Not to be argumentative, RP, but that's not really true, is it? Takamatsu Sensei tasked Hatsumi Sensei with the continuation, preservation, and teaching of the nine Ryu that he was awarded. Other people were tasked with the preservation and teaching of other lines from Takamatsu, such as Sato Kinbei, Kimura Masaji, Fukumoto Yoshio, Ueno Takashi etc who have passed their lines down to people such as Tanemura Sensei, Kaminaga Shigemi etc.

So it depends on which lines you're talking about, really. The ones in the Bujinkan? Sure. Other lines and arts? Different story.

When it comes to things like the term "Takamatsuden", that is not used to explicitly mean the Bujinkan, in fact, quite the opposite. It refers to the lines of martial traditions passed down from Takamatsu Sensei, and they are found in other groups and organisations outside of the Bujinkan, as a result the term "Takamatsuden" refers to all three major X-Kans', but only one can be referred to as "Hatsumiden", as it is the method of teaching that Hatsumi Sensei employs. I agree that the Bujinkan is an organisation, with Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu the martial art that is taught within that organisation, though, rather than the individual Ryu themselves (in the main). The same way that the Genbukan is an organisation, with Genbukan Ninpo Taijutsu being the martial art taught there.

When such a ranking is used, yep. See the above list for that, though.

 

It is tricky based on who and what you believe. However, Manaka Sensei and Tanemura Sensei both have Menkyo Kaiden from Hatsumi Sensei so that makes them his Shihan, regardless of them starting their own organizations. I have not met any of these gentlemen(Sato Kinbei, Kimura Masaji, Fukumoto Yoshio, Ueno Takashi) nor am I in a position to verify the other lines that Takamatsu Sensei was said to have passed on. I was talking from the Bujinkan perspective but as all those claiming these arts have passed through the Bujinkan(except Tanaka Fumon Sensei and of course the family branch of Kuki and other arts that have branched off from there that have nothing to do with Takamatsu Sensei), they still can be considered from that perspective.

 

The unholy posted

On the contrary, I have been very upfront about my back ground and who I have trained with and where. In fact had a a whole thread devoted to my background where I posted in depth my entire training history.

I have no problem in people hiding behind a false name, but if they then make claims that they are training under X sensei and they have tons more experience than another, then they should at least be preepared to reveal who they are to back up that statement. And if they refuse to, then really their claims are taken as is.



You see the problem I see on this forum is that people have no difficulty asking for the background of people outside the Bujinkan. And when those said people say that they don't want to reveal something, they claim this said individual has something to hide. But the moment one asks a Bujinkan member whose making claims to back it up by revealing who the questioner is accused of using dishonest tactics.

Dont you think this is a little hypocritical.

How do you know? I certianly don't.

Thats absolutely fine, but it just means to me at last that any claims he makes will not be taken asd proof of anything.

NO, he is making a claim. The claim is that his shihan teaches self defence based on real experience. I have asked who his teacher is and he has refused to give me that name. Thats fine but two things come out of this....

1/ if your going to make a claim at least be able to back it up, for to ask one person to do so without being prepared to yourself is a little hypocritical.

2/ If you fail to back up your claim then a) don't expect others to back up theirs, and b) dont expect your claiming to be accepted by all.

As I said, no problem in people having false names, but if you are making a claim be prepared to back it up.

Really?

Right so are you saying that I wasn't in the police force? That I didnt work for years in security carrying out hundreds of arrests etc?

Well i'm sorry mate but they are the facts, accept them or not.

it sounds like you presummed that. Nowhere did I claim that I had been studying with Norm for years or even months. I mentioned that I had visited Normans Dojo a few times. I thought we had visited three times, Norman says it was two. I'm sorry if by that you assumed that I had been training under him for a long time.

well you can think that actually but if that was so, why did I quit?

Also you fail to see that after Norman I also joined the Bujinkan with another group but for reasons this didnt work out. so if i had just wanted affililiation I could have just stayed with either Norman or the othet group. The fact I didn't says a lot don't you think.

As I said I have a lot of respect for Norman, but i left the Bujinkan because of mostly internal politics which i won't get into too much here

OK

I could do, but i'm unwilling to. aybe by PM

Actually some of the comments were good.

Oh you mean Mark spadas comment

Yep me and Mark have always been the best of buddies

but lets look at the other remarks...

So not all the comments were bad, just you, Mark and on, which was kind of expected.

rom you Mark and Don, which as my best buddies was not unexpected:bang:

I thought i had made that clear, which is why the video didnt say "bujinkan"

Unskilled by who? you

No spent six years in the Genbukan

Always a students. You just don't like it if someone goes off on their own. well too bad.

really. This says a lot about you.

So just for the record, most people who leave to do their own thing are wrong and bad at what they do?

Bujinkan elitism springs to mind here.

PS my apologies for any spelling mistakes as kind of rushing as I have security and PI course to teach at 9:30 which is why i havent answered RP posts.

 

I see this term occasionally on internet forums and hear it in the occasional conversation. The Bujinkan isn't Hatsumi-den, but includes some of the things found in Hatsumi-den.

 

Upfront? Well if you say so...

However, if we take a trip down memory lane, you have a lot of embarrassing history on MAP. Let's see.

Hayes and his time in Japan(where his house was and how you claimed it was closer than Hatsumi Sensei went to train with Takamatsu sensei), the thing about his nameboard getting taken down, SKH being the first Westerner to train with Hatsumi sensei(oh and how the term Westerner was different in the 80s than it is now), Hayes ability, your background, and we can go on and on. The fact that a thread was started about your background is telling...

Why not just say you have something to do? Why is everything you post an attempt to market yourself?:bang:

 

Find out how? Talk to who? All the claims you have made about yourself over the years have yet to be verified by anyone. Your skill, your relationship with a Shihan, what your Shihan teaches based on "real world experience".

Any claim you make about yourself or anybody else doesn't hold water without proof. You seem to conveniently avoid that quite a bit.

Actually there are quite a few people who can say they have been training 10 years+ in Japan. And from my experience being here in Japan 10+ doesn't carry the same weight as did in the 80's. That goes for both Foreign and Japanese alike.

 

Let's look at this logically. How many original students of Hatsumi sensei have dojos? Have you been to all of them? If you have there is a very good chance that our paths have already crossed.

Oh, so are you now arguing that none of the Shihan had any "real world experiences?"

The benefit you get from your time in Japan depends on a lot. Your goals, abilities, if you are an actual deshi of one of the Shihan, and so much more.

Actually I think you mean the 70s, not the 80s. Now how long have you lived in Japan and who is your teacher? Or you a hombu hoodrat?

 

LOL!! please see this:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074484868&postcount=25

look there I asked for witnesses. none were given.
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I would understand garth's or george rodger's claims. in fact, I CAN believe them, for I can VERIFY THEM.

I'd rather respect manga herself if she made a claim, for OTHERS that can be verified ATTESTED to her identity. better a pseudonym vetted by KNOWN other people than an ANONYMOUS person, having an ANONYMOUS instructor in an ANONYMOUS specific place in japan(if we can believe he's in japan).

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(back on topic)

what do you mean by that?

 

:whistleblower: Nice try but... This was years ago at Ayase. There were a few Aussies standing around who congratulated me afterwards, but I do not know if they are on MAP or that it really matters. Everyone who has spent any time in Japan knows people who were similarly awarded rank for whatever reason. As this was something that Hatsumi sensei said to me while walking around the room, I doubt there was anyone there to snap a picture of the historic moment.

The question of whether I was seen soon thereafter walking around with a black belt or not would be the next logical thing to ask. If you really want to know, I guess you would have to go see if there are records of people being promoted to sandan back then. Since I never took the rank, you shouldn't find the record of promotion from then so good will hunting.

Again, you can believe what you like, doesn't bother me. There is also an ignore buttom I believe so you can feel free to use it so you won't have to read my posts.

Beyond who I am and who I train with, what can't you verify? If you come to Japan and stick around for more than a tourist's holiday, the things of which I speak can be witnessed for yourself. What could be better?

 

My first question is what do you mean by "real world experience"?

No, I mean the 80's. I mean that someone claiming to have been studying these arts in Japan for 10+ years in the 80's would have been more skilled. Saying that these days should always be followed up with the statement, "Show me!" The 80's were the last vestiges of hardcore training as whole. It was also in my opinion the beginning of the commercialization on a global level.

Like anything in life your time (in Japan or just training in the Bujinkan) will be based on the choices you make.

Have we crossed paths in Japan? Probably, if you have been in Japan all this time like you said. Hombu hoodrat? No, I train more at the Shihan dojos than I do at Hombu. Time? Almost 9 years

Specifics of who, where and what not? I don't think you are position to ask those questions until you give up the info about yourself.

Like DaLurker said: