Syd hi. That's kewl syd. I'll look forward to speaking with Erle to get his oppinions on this. Ultimately though I don't think it matters that much whether any other form resembles taiji (closely or otherwise). The reason I had initially chosen taiji was for everyday health (nothing deliberating I hasten to add). It's great to know that compared to all MA, taiji is supreme - imho. With all due respect to your friend, I'm referring to just a couple of fighters who are the best of the best. Also, though I admit it is unlikely, do kindly remember that it is possible for fighters from another system to incorporate taiji. Whether it's only for teaching I'm not sure, I hear Erle's changed the form since the early days. Thanks for a very insightful post.
G'day Zun, The only elements of the form Erle changed was as a result of finding some old texts when he was back in China. When reading these texts it stated no less than 15 times (or something like that) that the back and spine must be vertical at all times. This meant that postures such as Needle at Sea Bottom and various other moves like Snake Creeps Down, which used to be performed leaning or bending the back were now changed to be performed with a 100% vertical back. It's a correction rather than a change. Best, Syd
Thanks Syd. Can't really imagine performing Needle at Sea Bottom any other way except with a straight back. I wondered why some other styles (yang, wudang, wu shu etc) claimed Snake Creeps Down (Low Single Whip) was easy until I saw them perform it bent over.
Zun, In the old days these movements were performed with a C back or bending forward. You can still see this being performed on Erles Yang Cheng Fu 108 forms on tape! Most likely you have learn't your stuff from Paul's students a long time after this correction had been made and passed onto Paul. Actually I found bending in Sea Bottom and Snake Creeps about the same as keeping the back vertical but there you go. The real tester is when you do the Broadsword form and twist into the Madarin Duck posture! Best, Syd
Just curious, because I study Tai Chi, when you say "back vertical", do you just mean "back straight", or the back actually making a ninety-degree angle with the ground?
As much as possible you must try to keep your back 90* degrees to the ground. This goes back to the classics when it states that you must feel as though your head is being held upright like a puppet on a string. Your head must always face in the direction of your torso and not turn in any other direction. The eye's have their directions also but then we get into all kinds of other things.
I study Wing Chun Kung Fu and Tai Chi Chuan, they go hand in hand. In fact the few guys at the school who managed to get far in their Tai Chi did noticibly well in sparring.
Hey, I'm a bit late to this thread but I've got a couple of points. Wing Chun & tai chi similarity? lots of wing chun experts disagree, but that art is still pretty external. The similarities are mostly in economy of movement for attacks (WC is direct, TC is rounded), and using ground force, although it doesn't have the waist movement of tai chi. MT and tai chi: I think the differences are that muay thai still teaches 'light' stepping, whereas tai chi (and bagua) teach you to root to the ground from the waist down (mud stepping). Chen style is the clearest use of that. Also, MT is a striking art, whereas a large part of tai chi (apart from fajing) concentrates on sticking, silk reeling etc, to maintain contact and yield/mirror the opponent. But I see where you’d get the benefit from a MT background. Mandarin duck is a great move ... until you try to stand up! Difference in teachers: That's interesting you mention it. I have been taught by a few of Erles former students and there are huge differences... Paul Brecher is a small guy, from an external background. He likes complicated moves and is very strict about technique and qigong during the form. Also, when he demonstrates advanced fajing, his feet leave the ground. He says it's just what happens at an advanced stage but I'll have to reserve my judgement (although who am I to argue?). Ross Lardner loves his fajing and I haven't seen much better apart from Erle. I remember him demonstrating a shoulder fajing in response to a grab from behind – knocked the wind out of me! Ross is still learning from Paul so you’d expect them to have similar style. Keith Brown is another small guy (and I think he and Paul share the highest level instructor grades in the WTBA). Keith’s style looks external, lots of body shakes and vocal fajing, but I think that’s just from having a very good internal style. Keith also brings a lot of bagua principles into his tai chi teaching (he concentrates more on hand/palm strikes and chin na in the form, rather than sticking (but I spose that’s an Erlechuan (!) trademark). Erle – I’m not even going to go there, because his style is so subtle now. That’s where a lot of beginners get it wrong – they try to copy Erle straight from the videos, but don’t realize he’s doing small frame when they can’t even understand large frame. After going to a camp in Murwillumbah last year, I found that not many of Erle’s teachers concentrate on pushing hands. I think that’s a shame because I’ve learned a lot from it (there’s really no other way to spar in this style, apart from fast san sao).
The internal and external distinction is of course a significant bone of contention, though for me it encapsulates the vastly different experiences I have had in practicing martial arts. Internal arts feel completely different to external arts - and no amount of training in an external art will make it feel internal - based on my experience. I could do Karate for a billion years and it would never feel like Taiji. In my experience, boxers punch from the shoulder whilst Taiji practitioners punch from the sine [in fajing]. I do a boxing cardio class on Wed nights, and the instructor, who is a boxer, gets freaked out about the way I punch - lots of power from a very short distance. I refuse to puch like a boxer, i.e. lots of distance from the shoulder, but he is ok with that. A friend of mine showed me some Wing Chun punches ... they were external. To the Erle-chuan practitioners out there, as someone called it: has anyone come across any other Taiji/Bagua like Erles? I teach the Montaigue system, but would really like to find other people with similar ideas/practices ... I would welcome this, but it has never happened. I will keep looking.
Also, tell me what your fav. monty videos are. I have just watched push-hands corrections 6 and 7, and they are really good. I have all the obvious ones: Lu-chan, Bagua circle and linear to Max [all to max], what are the silk reeling ones like, and the Bagua animals?
I don't study in earles system, but I do practice Old yang style from another source. I've seen a video of earle doing the form and it is basically the same. In the form I practice however a few of the moves have been changed slightly or are performed a little differently. The reason for some of the changes was that apparantly the person who brought this style/form with him from china to to the west was practicing in a restrictive space on the boat he travelled on, and he modified it accordingly. I recently attended a WTBA workshop on the short staff form, applications and 2 man chi sau, it was a good learning day and I enjoyed it. But I did have 1 gripe and that is form was not performed full on at the end as is customary apparantly. The instructors reason was that he was going to China on the Monday ( this was Saturday ) to train and wanted to reserve his energy. Personally I thought this was a bit off as there were about 16 people there who had all paid £50, this was my first exposure to this form and seeing it done properly I dont think is too much to expect. Surely someone of his level could replenish his energy with a bit of chi gung or something , or a hot bath, decent meal and a good nights sleep
www.zenkyoshin.com The school is a little unusual in it teaches both japanese arts and chinese. there is taiji quan Yang style (old/new), aiki-jutsu, Kenjutsu/iaijutsu (japanese sword), boxing and kickboxing. The kickboxing is taken by ex full contact champion Alan Fox. The school has a history of chinese/japanese influence which continues today - the history link on the site has some info. Taijiquan: there is chi gung taught, push hands, however the focus is more on the form in its martial context and applications. Also the Yang straight sword may also be learnt. regards geo
Incidently, one of my classmates realised that he had gone to school with one of the top WTBA instructors in London. He got in touch and had a private lesson with him, the instructor was a little surprised and dubious at first, but after seeing my classmates form he confirmed it was old yang style. Wherabouts are you alienlovechild, I'm in the North London area, if you aren't too far it would be good to get together and compare notes. There is quite a lot in the WTBA syllabus that we don't have which does interest me. I have often considered that in the future I may well attend classes - or just by lots of dvd's Theres just not the time to do all I'd like too - and do it well :bang: geo
A bit late into this chat but here is my own thoughts. I spent about 20 years in karate the last 8 of those in Go Ju. I got in to Tai Chi in the middle of that to start with i could not get my head round Tai Chi and thought it a waste of time it was not till i started doing more pushing hands that i started to get in to it a lot more. I was then taught a fast form and i got more interested at which point i stopped doing the karate and just did the Tai Chi it was then that it started to fall into place much more. I found it difficult to do both and even now i would not call my Tai Chi pure (even though i have my own classes) as i have too many other influences but i will say the attention to detail has made me understand my karate alot better. I am now in a place where i feel i am getting the Tai Chi principles more natural but there is still that karate part of me dying to burst out and some times does. I think you probably can mix the two as long as you except each will have an effect on the other art and certainly the Tai Chi can be hard work to get right at times.
Thanks for that geo, I will definitely look at the web-site. Sounds like an excellent school - all those arts would go together nicely. Unfortunately, I am in Australia, though if I ever go to the UK I will look your school up. Cheers
