In your opinion, what eskrima style is the best for kempoists?

I am curious, and maybe Dave Bishop, or another senior kempoist can help me out on this one.
Recently, i got into a heated discussion with a 4th degree in shaolin chuan fa ( shaolin kempo karate) about which styles of eskrima are the best.
The 4th degree claimed Arnis.
I replied, well, what about the rest, they have similar but different techniques,Some are for in-close, and not for distance, and are more to resemble " quick-cutting" techniques.
Can anyone please help and elaborate on this subject?
Thanks to all, and glad this site is back and running! :woo:

 

The terms are of a particular interest, and some like to mention one is better than the other. I don't believe that for one second it is who is the best practioner and who has the luck that day.

My thoughts would be to go for the style of Angel Cabalas, several books have been written about the style and system.

Since Kenpo has the outside and inside attacks and defense, you can see the simularities right away. Which came first is anybodies guess.

The empty hand is there, the stick and then they have the dagger/knife and sword art. The sword and scabbard are handy to know, sort of like the two sword art of Musashi, one for each hand (usually later in training).
Using the scabbard like a shield (defense) and the sword as the weapon of attack. The Espada y Daga, same concept.

I have many of the books put out by students of Angel Cabalas, the best one for me is the one put out by J.C. Cabiero..."The Pure Art of Cabalas Serrada Escrima".

It is a medium range art, but can easily adapt to close and far range. It is all in how you want to interpret the various moves, the foot work is very much part of the art. Triangles are the basis and the "chicken step" means to always be moving.

I saw an old video of Angel Cabalas and Dentoy Revillar, awhile back. Really fast action and fluid movement. Impressive to say the least.

Gary

 

I'd agree with Gary on this one that Serrada is one of the most practical and easy to learn Eskrima systems out there but Mike Inays version took it to another level. I haven't seen any of the books out there that covered any material that went beyond the very basic. But Mike Inays videos are very comprehensive.
http://www.inayaneskrima.com/shop.php?category=Videos

One needs to view them to realize their value.

 

Aside from the inherent silliness of saying any style is "the best" you have a fundamental problem with your post. You said that you were discussing "escrima" and someone said "arnis" was the best. Escrima, arnis, and kali are catchall descriptors for a wide variety of arts, you are sort of arguing that "kung fu" is the best style of "karate" it doesn't make sense.

I happen to study and recommend Pekiti-Tirsia Kali, but I won't say "its the best".... though its pretty damn good. I often describe Pekiti to kenpoists as "kenpo in reverse," you start with the weapons and get to empty hand. And it has all of the ingrained nastiness that kenpoists seem to enjoy.

Lamont

 

I know the Doce Pares style blends well with Kenpo and Chinese movements. My Sifu studies it for that reason.

 

The one where you fight people wearing protective gear and head cages on a regular basis.

 

The "best" is the "one or more" styles that compliment "your" current fighting method. I'm not saying the fighting method that your instructor teaches you but the fighting method as you interpet it.

For me I use a lot of trapping techniques and the short (19" to 22") Serrada sticks are truly an extension of the hand and easily translate into blade or empty hands.

If your an outside fighter or mid range to outside fighter you might try differant Eskrima systems that use the standard 26" stick and see where you feel at home. If your an inside fighter I would look for a Serrada instructor.

In the case above where I recomended Inyaya Eskrima they cover all 3 ranges short(19" to 24", depending on the lenth of your arms), medium (26") and long (35" to 38"). But train more heavily in short and medium range and empty hand and a lot blade work.

 

I would say that Kali Ilustrisimo is well suited to match with any art. It covers all fighting ranges, without favoring any.

Visit www.bakbakan.com and contact Master Christopher Ricketts (details on the left side of the website)...he may be able to help you.

Good luck in your search

Gumagalang (respectfully)

Peter

 

MNKali

This is a situation where your main art is complemented.

Take for example MNKali, it is part of the Inosanto group and the person who has that location is Rick Faye. His art of Kali and Silat is enhanced by his JKD training and boxing. They do Muay Thai also.
He has been a student of Larry Hartsell in the past and his art is close to the way he teach's, trapping etc..

The term used was to enhance Kenpo, I think the Serrada of Inay and Cabalas is the way to go for the Kenpo guys. If you are a JKD person then the MNKali is a nice one for you.

Richard Bustillo has the Doce Pares "Eskrido" art that he likes. It is a good one to learn also. Most don't have the time to shop around and go to lots of places. They go with the one that is close or they like the person. That is fine.

What I am saying is there is lots out there, so find something and do it. FMA complements all the arts, IMHO...

Gary

 

I didn't see anything there that set them apart from the average Eskrima school except having an action film star instructor and that does not guarantee "realistic" instruction and also that they are "expensive."

They charge a monthly fee that is exactly twice as much as Guro Ward charges for Inayan Eskrima and in Inayan Eskrima for $75 a month the student gets Inayan Kadena De Mano, Inayan Serrada and Inayan Largo Mano. Three complete styles and 4 supplemental stles, Inayan Dequerdas, Inayan Sinawali, Inayan Espada y Daga and Inayan Sibat/Bankow all for price of one.

"Inayan Eskrima is a complete martial art system, founded by Mangisursuro Mike G. Inay. As part of this system we study several styles of Eskrima, but we focus on three "core styles": Inayan Kadena de Mano, Inayan Serrada, and Inayan Largo Mano. Having these three styles that cover three separate ranges, and being able to flow between them effortlessly, is the key to balancing out Inayan Eskrima."

For more on the Inayan Martial Art Association:
http://www.inayanmartialarts.com/styles.htm

 

thanks for all the comments and advice !!!

Just wanted to say thank you to all, and thanks for all the advice!

 

This is a typical comment from someone who needs to hide behind a pseudonym. :woo: Obviously, you have not done any training in the Kali Ilustrisimo system, because if you are an experienced martial artist, you would see a vast difference...just as I did after over 30 years of training with many of the worlds very best instructors. The Ilustrisimo system has spanned over 5 generations, and has proven itself throughout that time as a very effective, efficient and extremely 'realistic' system...i.e. it has saved the lives of family members on literally hundreds of occasions (doesn't get much more realistic than that now, does it?) So much so, that members of this family have earned the respect of many internationally renowned masters and grandmasters from a large number of systems. This would include such revered instructors as, Guro Dan Inosanto, GM Angel Cabales, GM Diony Canete (Doce Pares), GM Ben Lema (Lightning Scientific Arnis), GM Jose Mena (Doblete Rapillion).

The action film star that you mention is Ronnie Ricketts, the brother of Master Topher. Incidentially, Master Topher, along with GM Tony Diego, GM Yuli Romo and M Rey Galang, is one of the four most senior surviving students of Tatang.

This, of course, is not showing any disrespect to the late Suro Mike Inay...someone whom I believe, was the best FMA instructor from the USA. Obviously, you are well aware that Suro Mike was taught by GM Angel Cabales, who was a younger associate of Grandmaster Antonio 'Tatang' Ilustrisimo. Both the Cabales and Inayan systems have techniques 'acquired' from the Ilustrisimo system.

Finally, may I suggest that you do your homework properly before publically commenting on something that you obviously know very little about.

Gumagalang (Respectfully)

Peter

 

While this is a great plug for a great martial art, in the context that you imply...ie. in response to my post, you are again way out of line. There are common concepts and threads throughout the Inayan system, so it is misleading to imply "three for the price of one!" Filipino Martial Arts teach us to use almost anything as a weapon...BUT...you cannot claim the Inayan Shoe System, Inayan Cigar System, the Inayan Car System...etc. That would be a typically commercial approach that any unethical instructor might claim in an attempt to con more students.

As I said before, do your homework first...Grandmaster Antonio Ilustrisimo favored no range or technique (as cited in Wiley, and confirmed to me directly by GM Yuli Romo). Kali Ilustrisimo covers all ranges of fighting, without trying "sell" several arts that are effectively part of one!!!

Gumagalang

Peter

 

1) Do you have me confused with someone? When was I (way)out of line??

2) Wrong, as taught by my instructor (not his words but by instruction) Guro Ward teaches them all as one BUT Jason Inay who has taken his fathers title of Suro certifies the systems separately.

3) Wiley's not a good source.

Theres nothing wrong with your system except it's expensive. Everything appears to priced a bit high.

 

Greetings,
Just to add, I believe Master Topher Ricketts is now based in San Diego, if you are interested in learning more about KI I think Peter may be able to help you get in touch.



cheers

 

1) You ARE out of line for making potentially very political public statements about something or someone that you are not certain of. I am not confused at all (Mr Sarcastic!), but when a person (shaolinmonkmark) asks for advice, it is not good practice to make remarks such as yours.

2) Yes...I am fully aware that Suro Jason Inay has taken the mantle of his father. Suro Jason is well respected, and I have students who have learned from him during a trip to London. The status and skills of Suro Jason has nothing to do with your remarks about Master Topher and / or Kali Ilustrisimo. Your post inferred that the Inayan system offers "three in one," whereas Kali Ilustrisimo does not. That is based on YOUR opinion and NOT that of Suro Jason. I believe that he would be far more professional than to make such public remarks about another Master of FMA.

3) Strange that you claim that Mark Wiley is not a good source. He has done a great deal more than you have to promote Cabales Eskrima, which is one the parent arts of the Inayan sytem. Are you now knocking GM Cabales who taught Suro Mike Inay??? Further, I did state that the comments of Mr Wiley have been confirmed directly to me by Grandmaster Epifanio 'Yuli' Romo...the second most senior student of Tatang and heir to the Romo family system.

As Oosh has stated, I can certainly put you in contact with Master Ricketts, however, I would also refer him and Suro Jason to your unhelpful remarks on this thread. A further suggestion would be that you travel to the Philippines and ask stylists from any system how well respected Grandmaster Ilustrisimo and his most senior students are?

Tread carefully...the FMA world is smaller than you realise!

Gumagalang

Peter

 

hello. sorry for the intrusion.

Peter is expensive? lol... That's funny. He charges next to nothing for workshops, charges me nothing when I'm broke and has even given me lots and lots of sticks and books as pressies. He treats all others the same. Peter has been nothing but supportive to FMAers, even me who is not a Kali Ilustrisimo practisioner (I practise another system). Peter is actually one of the best FMA instructors here in Europe... so I guess, that if he was 'expensive', that he deserves it. (Dude, I even travel up to Worcester from London only to see him!!) Seriously... he's poor. hehe

Expensive? Wahahahha......

Lots of Love
Diana

:Angel:

 

You're "reading" way beyond what my posts say. I'm not sarcastic at all. You who do not know me from Adam "assume" that I have a double meaning or something to my posts. I write it in "black and white."

I don't, not at all. I did not say anything (or name anyone) about your peers or the system accept I did not having an action star for an instructor does not equate realistic. I did not say he was not. I said it does not guarantee because of his action star status that the training is realistic. Please don't bend my words.

As for Wiley and the other master instructors. Maybe you can ask Mikes son why Mike was not certified a master instructor by Angel? And take note of the other notables who also were not. The list of advanced instructors looks much better than the list of master instructors, ummm...

The only other thing I said about your system was that it is expensive and it is. Everything about the website says expensive.

Annual Membership Fees:
Groups/Chapters: $250
Individuals : $100
Individuals belonging to a registered or Affiliate Chapter need not pay annual membership fee to Bakbakan International. The corresponding chapter or group may impose its own annual fees to their respective students, representing the individuals as part of the registered group/chapter.
If, however, the individual desires to have a direct affiliation and certification with Bakbakan International rather than through its affiliate/associate chapter, then the annual membership fee applies. Annual fees must be paid/renewed on the anniversary date/renewal period of the respective group/individual.
Tuition:
Regular (Group) Classes
Monthly Tuition: $150 (3 sessions per week)
Per lesson: $25
Private lessons: (maximum of 4 participants) :
1st hour: 1 person - $100; 2 persons - $150; 3 persons - $ 175; 4 persons - $ 200
each additional hour or part thereof: $ 50
On-site Group Package (2-hour sessions per day)
Five (5) day Group Training Package ( maximum of 4 participants): $1000
Each additional participant : $100
Testing/Certification:
Fee: $50 (must have active/current membership status)
Off-site Seminars/Workshops
Per workshop (3 - 4 hours) : $1200
2-day workshops (3 - 4 hours per workshop day): $1800
Training and Seminars/Workshops Combos (4 or 5 day package)
3 training sessions (2 hours per day ) + 1 workshop day (3 - 4 hours) : $2000
3 training sessions (2 hours per day ) + 2 workshop day (3 - 4 hours) : $2500

The above seminar/workshop fee is exclusive of travel, board and lodging expenses to be paid by the sponsoring group/chapter.
Please note that the above schedule of seminar and/or workshop fees are exclusively for Affiliate, Associate and Official Chapters of Bakbakan International. Non-Bakbakan groups are subject to a 25% surcharge.

 

akja- "The only other thing I said about your system was that it is expensive and it is. Everything about the website says expensive." -


akja:
"I didn't see anything there that set them apart from the average Eskrima school except having an action film star instructor and that does not guarantee "realistic" instruction and also that they are "expensive."

I've never heard someone describe KI as average before...first time for everything I guess Also by saying the school is average you are by default implying that the teacher is - I can assure you Master Topher is of the very highest calibre. His skills speaks for themself, he doesn't need to rely on other people's reputations and this applies to the other pillars also.

 

These fees are fairly reasonable

These fees are not out of line from what I have seen in the past. Unfortunately these things have gone up in the last few years.

I don't know many of the students who are putting these on that make any money they just seem to break even for their students, Tough out there if you have a school to get these heavy hitters to come to it.

Fees****

Annual Membership Fees:
Groups/Chapters: $250
Individuals : $100
Individuals belonging to a registered or Affiliate Chapter need not pay annual membership fee to Bakbakan International. The corresponding chapter or group may impose its own annual fees to their respective students, representing the individuals as part of the registered group/chapter.
If, however, the individual desires to have a direct affiliation and certification with Bakbakan International rather than through its affiliate/associate chapter, then the annual membership fee applies. Annual fees must be paid/renewed on the anniversary date/renewal period of the respective group/individual.
Tuition:
Regular (Group) Classes
Monthly Tuition: $150 (3 sessions per week)
Per lesson: $25
Private lessons: (maximum of 4 participants) :
1st hour: 1 person - $100; 2 persons - $150; 3 persons - $ 175; 4 persons - $ 200
each additional hour or part thereof: $ 50
On-site Group Package (2-hour sessions per day)
Five (5) day Group Training Package ( maximum of 4 participants): $1000
Each additional participant : $100
Testing/Certification:
Fee: $50 (must have active/current membership status)
Off-site Seminars/Workshops
Per workshop (3 - 4 hours) : $1200
2-day workshops (3 - 4 hours per workshop day): $1800
Training and Seminars/Workshops Combos (4 or 5 day package)
3 training sessions (2 hours per day ) + 1 workshop day (3 - 4 hours) : $2000
3 training sessions (2 hours per day ) + 2 workshop day (3 - 4 hours) : $2500

The above seminar/workshop fee is exclusive of travel, board and lodging expenses to be paid by the sponsoring group/chapter.
Please note that the above schedule of seminar and/or workshop fees are exclusively for Affiliate, Associate and Official Chapters of Bakbakan International. Non-Bakbakan groups are subject to a 25% surcharge.
******
Hi again:
I won't post some of the ones I have seen or heard LOL...I know of one that has gone over $5000.00, 2 day deal, plus flight to and from and housing and food
Need 50 people at $65 a day to break even... :bang:

Regards, Gary