So in other words they were directly responsible for shaping Sijo Lee's personal training methodology and how he formulated JKD through said exposure Yeah, no JKD connection there at all.......... Because Wing Chun had no influence on how Lee developed at all did it? I find it very hard to fathom how you can write that with any level of seriousness. Even Lee's notes reveal how they were intertwined so to say they are irrelevant is to fly in teh face of everything out there. Are the the "recipe" for JKD? Nope - but I know of none who said that they are.
Being willfully ignorant of the early steps in a thought process is a sure fire way not to be able to reproduce it.
Being stuck to the early steps of a thought process is also a sure fire way to hinder one's growth and understanding...
I don't particularly agree. There will be many a novelist who was stuck on the first paragraph, a university student agonising over a thesis, or indeed a chemist trying to solve the problem of creating a life saving drug. In fact I would argue, certainly in the case of the chemist, that a better understanding may come from being stuck at the beginning phase of a thought process.
I told one of my friends what you guys said about the '26 arts', and he went back to his own JKD school and asked the guys over there what they thought about that. This is what he sent me: So now I'm actually very curious as to where you guys got your information. I mean, I would like to know "where" Bruce Lee learned these 26 arts, "who" he learned them from, and "what" he took from them to create Jeet Kune Do, if anyone here can give me all the answers. 1. Who - taught Bruce Lee? 2. Where - did Bruce Lee train at? 3. What - did Bruce Lee incorporate into JKD? If anyone can answer those simple questions regarding all 26 arts on that list, then I will drop down on my knees, retract all of my previous statements, and apologize to the entire MAP community for my ignorance. However, if you cannot... Then what, if anything, does any of that have to do with Jeet Kune Do? How is that information useful? What does it contribute? What are your references? Give me one reason why I should believe in any of this stuff? How is it going to benefit me? How does it effect anybody's JKD training? How is it NOT misleading?
That isn't going to cut it... I want 26 real answers. Another thing I forgot to ask was "when" Bruce Lee learned these 26 arts. Take your time, I got all day: Wing Chun 1. Who - taught Bruce Lee? 2. Where - did Bruce Lee train at? 3. What - did Bruce Lee incorporate into JKD? 4. When - did Bruce Lee train in this style? Northern Praying Mantis 1. Who - taught Bruce Lee? 2. Where - did Bruce Lee train at? 3. What - did Bruce Lee incorporate into JKD? 4. When - did Bruce Lee train in this style? Southern Praying Mantis 1. Who - taught Bruce Lee? 2. Where - did Bruce Lee train at? 3. What - did Bruce Lee incorporate into JKD? 4. When - did Bruce Lee train in this style? Choy Li Fut 1. Who - taught Bruce Lee? 2. Where - did Bruce Lee train at? 3. What - did Bruce Lee incorporate into JKD? 4. When - did Bruce Lee train in this style? Tai Chi (Wu style) 1. Who - taught Bruce Lee? 2. Where - did Bruce Lee train at? 3. What - did Bruce Lee incorporate into JKD? 4. When - did Bruce Lee train in this style? Bagua 1. Who - taught Bruce Lee? 2. Where - did Bruce Lee train at? 3. What - did Bruce Lee incorporate into JKD? 4. When - did Bruce Lee train in this style? Hsing-I 1. Who - taught Bruce Lee? 2. Where - did Bruce Lee train at? 3. What - did Bruce Lee incorporate into JKD? 4. When - did Bruce Lee train in this style? Bak Hoo Pai (White Tiger) & Bak Fu Pai (White Crane) 1. Who - taught Bruce Lee? 2. Where - did Bruce Lee train at? 3. What - did Bruce Lee incorporate into JKD? 4. When - did Bruce Lee train in this style? Eagle Claw 1. Who - taught Bruce Lee? 2. Where - did Bruce Lee train at? 3. What - did Bruce Lee incorporate into JKD? 4. When - did Bruce Lee train in this style? Ng Ga Kuen (5 Family System) 1. Who - taught Bruce Lee? 2. Where - did Bruce Lee train at? 3. What - did Bruce Lee incorporate into JKD? 4. When - did Bruce Lee train in this style? Ny Ying Ga (5 Animal) 1. Who - taught Bruce Lee? 2. Where - did Bruce Lee train at? 3. What - did Bruce Lee incorporate into JKD? 4. When - did Bruce Lee train in this style? Bak Mei Pei (White Eyebrow) 1. Who - taught Bruce Lee? 2. Where - did Bruce Lee train at? 3. What - did Bruce Lee incorporate into JKD? 4. When - did Bruce Lee train in this style? Northern Shaolin 1. Who - taught Bruce Lee? 2. Where - did Bruce Lee train at? 3. What - did Bruce Lee incorporate into JKD? 4. When - did Bruce Lee train in this style? Southern Shaolin 1. Who - taught Bruce Lee? 2. Where - did Bruce Lee train at? 3. What - did Bruce Lee incorporate into JKD? 4. When - did Bruce Lee train in this style? Bok Pai 1. Who - taught Bruce Lee? 2. Where - did Bruce Lee train at? 3. What - did Bruce Lee incorporate into JKD? 4. When - did Bruce Lee train in this style? Law Horn Kuen 1. Who - taught Bruce Lee? 2. Where - did Bruce Lee train at? 3. What - did Bruce Lee incorporate into JKD? 4. When - did Bruce Lee train in this style? Chin Na 1. Who - taught Bruce Lee? 2. Where - did Bruce Lee train at? 3. What - did Bruce Lee incorporate into JKD? 4. When - did Bruce Lee train in this style? Monkey Style 1. Who - taught Bruce Lee? 2. Where - did Bruce Lee train at? 3. What - did Bruce Lee incorporate into JKD? 4. When - did Bruce Lee train in this style? Drunken Style 1. Who - taught Bruce Lee? 2. Where - did Bruce Lee train at? 3. What - did Bruce Lee incorporate into JKD? 4. When - did Bruce Lee train in this style? Fencing (foil) 1. Who - taught Bruce Lee? 2. Where - did Bruce Lee train at? 3. What - did Bruce Lee incorporate into JKD? 4. When - did Bruce Lee train in this style? Boxing 1. Who - taught Bruce Lee? 2. Where - did Bruce Lee train at? 3. What - did Bruce Lee incorporate into JKD? 4. When - did Bruce Lee train in this style? Wrestling 1. Who - taught Bruce Lee? 2. Where - did Bruce Lee train at? 3. What - did Bruce Lee incorporate into JKD? 4. When - did Bruce Lee train in this style? Jujutsu 1. Who - taught Bruce Lee? 2. Where - did Bruce Lee train at? 3. What - did Bruce Lee incorporate into JKD? 4. When - did Bruce Lee train in this style? Escrima/Kali 1. Who - taught Bruce Lee? 2. Where - did Bruce Lee train at? 3. What - did Bruce Lee incorporate into JKD? 4. When - did Bruce Lee train in this style? Sikaran 1. Who - taught Bruce Lee? 2. Where - did Bruce Lee train at? 3. What - did Bruce Lee incorporate into JKD? 4. When - did Bruce Lee train in this style? Muay Thai 1. Who - taught Bruce Lee? 2. Where - did Bruce Lee train at? 3. What - did Bruce Lee incorporate into JKD? 4. When - did Bruce Lee train in this style?
I think it's certainly possible to learn to perform JKD without knowing things like this. I do. But if someone is at all interested in learning the backstory, the process by which Lee arrived at his conclusions, then you probably want to know where he started. So how much White Crane (or whatever) is present in JKD? Probably none really. But if you're interested in understanding Lee's theories on discarding what's useless, doesn't it make sense to know what material he was looking at when he decided what he was rejecting? You could just as easily tell me that gravity prevents me from flying off into space. And I'd know as much as I NEED to know. But if I really want to understand gravity, I'd probably want to look back a lot further than that and see some of the previous assumptions that went into our current understanding (even those assumptions that ultimately proved to be mistaken). Perhaps that's what Paul Vunak and Guro Dan had in mind when they cited these things. Rumour has it they were JKD teachers too.
Have you actually READ any of Sijo's notes? The "26 styles" thing is exposure to OR training in - the genesis of them is self-apparent to anyone who is not operating from ignorance or agenda
Believe it or not, I actually never read any of Bruce Lee's notes. lol Everything I learned comes from training with Bruce Lee's students. I'm not a 'JKD guy', though, like I said...
the "26 arts" thing is another "finger pointing" It is a bit like reading up on Sabism and how it relates to a modern christian - there is essentially only a thread visible here and there, but form a historical perspecive it is fascinating. John Little published and edited a lot of Bruce's notes through Tuttle - the first volume was "Tao of Gung Fu" and has some absolutely fascinating insights in there. You also need to look at some of the stills of Bruce's library to get an idea of how his mind worked. Many of the more obscure arts he could actually demonstrate forms from - a quick check at his Charlie Chan screentest shows some Crane. Tai Chi he learned from his father, fencing from his brother. Jesse Glover was a Judoka, Leo Fong a boxer, Gene Lebell a Judoka & wrestler, Parker was Kenpo, Wally Jay SCJJ, Norris & Rhee KMA etc....that is 8 arts exposure instantly. As Bruce would train with anyone 26 is not that much of a stretch really Bruce's books and original notes in the same would show you as much The people who get the most caught up in the "26 arts" thing are those who deny it. For the rest of us it was just a map with markings on it.
Okay, cool, but that still doesn't answer a lot of my questions, including the main question - What does any of that have to do with JKD? Bruce Lee studied Wing Chun, Boxing and Fencing, okay, cool. Everyone pretty much agrees on that, so those three styles aren't really up for debate. Also, as a former JKD guy who has also studied Wing Chun, Boxing and Fencing, I can actually see where Bruce Lee incorporated elements from those 3 styles into Jeet Kune Do, so I'm not arguing with that. As for Jujutsu, he probably did incorporate some Judo/Jujutsu elements into JKD as well. I did learn some JKD grappling, and none of the previously mentioned 3 arts have grappling techniques in them, so it's not likely that Bruce Lee learned grappling from Wing Chun, Boxing or Fencing. He had to have incorporated those elements from Judo/Jujutsu. Bruce Lee incorporated a lot of JKD kicks as well, most likely from his exposure to Taekwondo, which isn't even mentioned on your list of 26 arts! How is it you can mention White Crane, a style that ap Oweyn now admits probably isn't even relevant to JKD, but you never mentioned Taekwondo, the style Bruce Lee incorporated a lot of his JKD kicks from?! And that's only four styles. What about the other 22 styles you guys mentioned? Where do they come in at? That's a lot of useless, irrelevant, misleading information if you ask me. No, I'm still pretty positive that none of those styles bares much, if any resemblance at all, to Jeet Kune Do, and that it's probably better that you keep that list to yourself, so as not to be misleading. But I'm still open to correction if any of you guys can answer my questions regarding all 26 arts. Just because Bruce Lee demonstrated Tai Chi one time, that does not make Tai Chi a part of the JKD ciricullum. JKD has a definate structure, which a lot of people don't understand. Bruce Lee didn't just take Wing Chun, Boxing, Fencing, Jujutsu and Taekwondo, and blend it all together to form a mixed martial arts system. If he did, I'd still be considered a JKD practitioner. That's not how JKD works. Unfortunately, even if some of you guys already know that, a lot of people still don't, so I think it's important to not only understand, but to stress the difference between JKD and MMA, and everything else we've been talking about. And if I am denying anything about what you've said, it's only because you haven't confirmed it beyond a reasonable doubt. You can't just say that 26 styles have a whole lot to do with JKD, and then expect me to take your word for it, especially when some of your own friends are now saying "Well, at least one of those styles probably has nothing to do with JKD", I mean, that really doesn't help your case at all. So I'm not in denial, I'm just being realistic.
First off, you got a chuckle out of me on this one. As though I were some sort of authority. "Now that ap Oweyn has said... " Please! I'm nobody. First you rely on the appeal to authority ("unnamed JKD teacher says..."). Now what's this? An appeal to irrelevance? That said, I didn't say it was irrelevant. And I'm disappointed that you'd stoop to that trick. I said White Crane might not noticeably be there. That's a very different thing. And if you don't see the distinction, I'm not sure how to restate it so that you will.
I have told you where to look - if you re too lazy to do so that is your issue not mine. Did you look up the Sifu I mentioned? No because it shows you are wrong, or at least mistaken. Have you heard the Dan Lee phone call with Bruce? Have you read his letters? What you are doing is like bluffing in poker - except you are not doing with a weak hand, you are doing it with no cards
he was "exposed" to muay thai means jack. he never trained in it so we can write that off. I've heard his knowledge of wrestling was minimal, he saw the value in it and wished he could learn more but never actually did. As for boxing, at best he was considered an amateur beginner boxer. I dont know about the others but i'd be willing to bet that the average student with 5 or 6 years behind their belt had a better knowledge of the system than he did. with that in mind it's fairly safe to say that the majority of what bruce used to judge the "worth" of other arts and how to apply it was based off of wing chun and other forms of kung fu. Not exactly the best start for a genuine fighting career. OH wait, he never had one of them.
It means nothing with regards to Bruce because he died prior to exploring that side of things. To me it was and is something I took on on and trained with former world champs. Dan Inosanto brought Sirsute in during the 70's/80's so what Bruce did or did not do is of historic interest
