But what you train dictates what will come out to a large extent. You could see that there were a few guys in those videos who were concerned about footwork. But no matter how concerned you are, anyone moving on their feet is using stance and footwork, the only variable is how effective that is.
1) + 3) - all concerned look highly skilled with very natural cutting, footwork and evasion. My guess is they are farm hands in Venezuela, Honduras, Guatemala etc - some of the most violent countries on the planet; and they are very accustomed to cutting andd hacking with machetes. Their footwork and evasion suggests that they are quite accustomed to such skirmishes. In 1) the recovery of attack by both looks like they are very experienced, capable of maintaining attack and defence over a sustained duration and under duress, and able to concentrate on the ebb and flow, very well. 2) this is much more chaotic, with interruptions from others, forcing whatever technique the 2 combatants have to degrade under duress and confusion.
There were a variety of approaches too, from fencing style line, more 45°, all the way to untrained front-on jumping about.
Iron Fist, found a video of USA Yee's students getting tested in New York branch - you may remember this school from your training days ? Sparring tests start at around 6:40 (this is how we typically spar but with head/gum guard and gloves (for NON San Shou sparring)) - not sure, but do you know if sparring tests for yee cups and above are without any safety gear and gloves as in this video? BTW, Yee pedro is DEADLY with his pole lol! I get tested in February again (Yat cup senior)! you can see the students' nerves lol! [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f58qCcn1O9A"]余志å‰æ´ªæ‹³æ*¦é¤¨çš„晉級考試.avi - YouTube[/ame]
In 1) the 2 geezers were very capable of springing into attack and back out for evasive defence. In 2) the early stages did suggest a more 45° of engagement, somewhat closer in - not unlike Eskrima, but then it all went chaotic.
I agree what you choose to train before will come out as best it can for that moment if it's functional. But during the actual situation the only concern is the moment to moment...not if they are correctly applying some specific footwork to fulfil an idea of what footwork should be. Footwork will be whatever is working or has worked before in a similar experience.
In 1) the timing of the footwork looked too well oiled to be 'untrained'. That said, this encounter looked like a largely linear skirmish i.e. no circling and stalking, just along a straight line.
I agree, but that's a given, no? Does anyone believe they will be plotting out all their steps in a textbook fashion, in some kind of meta-analysis of a fight they're in?
Definitely not. However, if you do not start from some structure and/or meaningful experience, it is difficult to develop natural and adaptive footwork to suit the chaotic dynamics of a 'real' situation. Most folk tend to see technical footwork as viewed from their experience. I thought I 'knew' a bit about footwork - until I did 5 months of Capoeira last year in Holland.
Considering the amount of nonsense that is out there that simply will not work during a chaotic, violent,ever changing enviroment and the amount of styles their are that don't resemble how a human moves during an emergency and the amount of low intense demos you see where a guy is telling people what they should do, sometimes in a pretty specific manner and how much people seem to want to force their style into the situation before it's even happened ( I must do 'insert style' because that's what I have been doing and I'm now attached to it)....it doesn't always seem it's a given.
Not quite sure what you are asking David. However, maybe these are the answers:- 1) Capoeira is very, very good at long to medium range footwork, weight change, evasion, feinting and tripping/sweeping - all very natural and non-scripted; but breaks down somewhat at close range - to my perception - with little to offer with hands - unless so purposely developed - my teacher acknowledged this. I think this is partly historical as the slaves had to 'hide' their intention a lot. 2) If you mean 'hands' as in weaponry, well partly. In my perception, body movement is as important as handwork with weaponry. FWIW, I am not fully convinced by the vast majority of weapon based MA - as practised - too many folk want to play-out some Samurai part in some bad Zorro movie. Eskrima (in general) and Maul Mornie's Silat are probably the most complete and approaching 'realism'. However there is 1 pretty much guaranteed aspect vs sharps, if you do not get out of the road through some form of evasion, you might as well be fighting an electric Bacon slicer. Let's put it this way, I have no functional perception of Boxing or Wrestling vs sharps - its all very context specific, spontaneous and tactical.
Ok, those were largely too hard for me in a 5 month stint. I was getting better, but they were damm difficult. All of Capoeira almost killed my 56 year old body, but I made better adaptation to footwork, evasion, weight changes - and when I got in close - without having my legs swept off of me and dumped on my butt - I did catch folk out with ankle locks and throwing/catching kicks; than to any of the fancy sideways flying axe kick combos - you need to be damm fit for that sort of caper. My teacher could do all that stuff back to front and he was 57. [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VePy7-kPAys"]Most amazing capoeira knockout ever recorded HD - YouTube[/ame]
Those students should be allowed to pad up. There is no point in sparring at that intensity with such little contact. It mostly looked like bad kickboxing with lead leg strikes used to fence and hands used to close distance, ending up mostly in the clinch. I'm intrigued as to how this relates to statements made regarding the inherent advantages of Hung Gar for dealing with weapons and how the unarmed footwork inherently carries over to weapon defence. If the concept of distance and weapon awareness are so pervasive why does the unarmed sparring look like that? Is this not representative?
Hey brother saw your comment, for the record I don't believe Hung gar footwork has any inherent advantages in dealing with weapons other than the fact that stance and footwork straining in Hung gar is very difficult, rewarding, and it does improve explosive leg movement across the board...for punching, kicking, lifting, throwing and so on. And running ( I run more now that I've done Hung gar than I even had the stamina for before!) 200 years ago this was some of the best training in China for such leg work (and the source of many "Southern Fist/Leg/Horse" and similar anecdotes like "Iron Bridge"). Today you could get similar improvements in a gym, but the nice thing about Hung gar is that the leg training is integrated in with the striking, kicking, and so forth. I personally do both gym and Hung gar leg exercises. They are a great combination. That was a really cool video (the NYC one) and the locale is I believe the Clifton branch, but it might be in New York (there are actually quite a few in New York as well as some "breakaway" schools that formed their own associations). A lot of them have the same stuff (weapons racks pictures wooden floors sun toi platforms so they all look similar A very good question, "representative"? I would say it's representative of kids and low level students learning the (early) ropes, as opposed to what most Hung gar full contact students engage in as contact practice, which looks completely different due to the level of refinement required, and includes the "padding up" and contact that the NYC video didn't (from my perspective that stuff is the first 1% of real sparring, it's more like learning to dance with a partner, something Hung gar also has some forms for (I don't know any)). These videos are more representative (in my humble opinion) of the kind of introductory contact that occurs at low level testing and pre-San Shou-type training. So I expect it to look "bad". Just being honest, I think most Hung gar students will look bad until they've gotten a significant amount of real full contact training experience, but that's no different than any full contact art. Look at boxing, everybody can learn the techniques of boxing, but it can take you years to refine your movement. In boxing you have to learn to do that while being hit all over. In Hung gar 2015 it's a little different, there is a 'low road' and a 'high road'. The low leads to graceful but relatively untested technique (and for some students that's all they ever want). For others, the harder road leads to full contact competition. Without a doubt brother, that road is the one you're familiar with. Hung gar is a huge art so there is a wide spectrum of skill levels, from kids playing patty cake to adults getting used to being poked for the first time, to kickboxing with throwing like in San Shou or Guo Shu. A lot of students will look like bad kickboxers because they are, (but much like a lot of inexperienced students in any art including MMA without years of refinement). If they choose the non-contact route, they'll end up working on their relaxation, and form, and still get a great deal of benefit from the art. Hopefully they get the "bug" and want to start suiting up for some real contact. I did a little of that. There are certainly extremely good kickboxers in Hung gar schools today. If you want to see representation of that, I would look for those students training for San Shou or Guo Shu, or similar events. (picture below is of the Brazilian branch of Yee's doing just that). That's where the "good kickboxing" is to be found.
That appears to be some form of testing/demonstration, which is required for certain ranks in Yee's. For each major rank/form learned, there is a requirement to perform light contact sparring in front of the sifus. It is definitely not great because you can tell those students aren't engaged in much full contact Hung gar training (the kind I mentioned above). The latter requires significantly more training than the average Hung gar student is willing to undertake (I think you know what I mean brother I have watched your fights and you could have great 'Hung gar skills' but it's h-a-r-d!!! ). Some of the worst kickboxing I've ever seen has been in actual kickboxing gyms, because a lot of those people don't actually want to get punched or kicked, they want to sound loud hitting pads For Hung gar, it really varies based on the individual student, some are there to learn to fight (and they should find plenty of opportunities in a good Hung gar association), and others are there to learn the art, which has so many parts. The consistency of the schools is such that both opportunities are there for students. Some people will end up learning both the full art and the real fighting aspects, and that's a really cool thing in my book, that's the real Hung gar artist, like Wong Fei Hung. Others will end up choosing just the fighting skills, becoming real boxers, kickboxers, or grapplers (but eschewing the gazillion other parts of Hung gar including the empty hand and weapon forms). My guess is that most will end up not going nearly that far for the same reasons the vast majority of people join any martial arts school (they just have to have the karate, kung fu, ninjutsu or whatever). The nice thing about the art is that is takes those people into account too, while still offering options for those who want to "keep it real". Some of the coolest Hung gar people I know are the ones who make teas and medicines, or only enjoy Hung gar training because it helps their back pain But there are some kickass Hung gar people mixing it up cross training outside their style in a wide variety of rule sets and competition formats. Did you realize one of them posted here already, and he is a Hung gar sifu and a UFC veteran?
Well, below is a video of Kickboxing sparring from another very good and respected school in the city - this school is one of the best in the country! The sparring starts at 5:00 and it doesn't look like they're going nuts at each other even though they're padded?: [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIzetgoDWgg"]Basic Kickboxing Class - YouTube[/ame] BTW this is my last post and I'm logging off forever...I can't believe the negativity on these forums - yuk! Good byes to all the great people I've communicated with. peace
