How do you practice/teach sparring?

Yes, KBS 9, and SMS 5 &7 anre good techniques and I personally believe BJJ is superior ON THE GROUND.

 

I'm sceptical of this as both a training method and as a technique for escaping an RNC/Mata Leo.

1) Your entire approach is predicated on the idea that an eye gouge will stop the fight/stop the choke. I think this is a little optimistic. The sort of tactic you are advocating is pretty much an act of desperation that wastes time that would be better spent taking steps to mount a more effective escape and also leaves you open to other submissions such as an arm triangle/head and arm choke. The RNC comes on extremely fast in capable hands.

2) It's actually quite easy to keep your head/eyes out of reach or at least shielded enough while back mounted.

3) really you want two hands on the choking arm (an your chin tucked) to ease pressure and gain control of the arm to escape, if your reaching back (and making yourself vulnerable to submissions in the process) then that's a valuable point of contact sacrificed needlessly.

honest questions:

1) do you teach your students how to apply a proper RNC?

2) do you teach them any other methods of escape other than the eye gouge?

3) Have you tried to use this technique against a practicing grappler?

here's some related clips for your amusment:-

Bas rutten anecdote starts about 5:33

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceXF0LNg6lc&feature=related"]Bas Rutten rallarsving - YouTube[/ame]

some guys testing a standing (easier than a back mounted escape) RNC escape via eye gouge:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9f_BOHdaEE"]RNC Escape Test - YouTube[/ame]

fairly decent rnc instructional:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=176SLdBhj_A"]A Rear Naked Choke Tutorial - YouTube[/ame]

 

Thanks, K_G, as I really enjoyed that Bas Rutten anecdote.


Answering your last question first, no. I have never crossed paths with a professional "grappler" or MMAist.

The answer to your second question is yes. In fact, it's as you stated yourself, the first thing to do is to grab the choking arm with both hands and maneuver your Adam's Apple into the crook of their elbow, thus preventing a compression choke on the windpipe and forcing them to resort to a blood choke, which takes a little longer to show its effects. However I disagree with your assessment that attacking your opponent's face when they have you in a rear choke is easier to do from a standing position. As shown in the 3rd video you provided, rolling to face your opponent may be easier than trying to do a comparable maneuver on your feet.

As for your first question, despite the tutorial video, I'm still not sure what you mean, but please realize that rolling around on the ground is not considered to be an optimal place to be in a fight, going by kuk-sool standards. Choking is but one way to dispatch an opponent, and there are plenty of quicker methods available, so while choking is not overlooked as an option, it doesn't top the list.


You seem to be annoyed at my revelation in post #57, and by the inclusion of the Bas Rutten clip, I'll assume fairly skeptical as well. So perhaps I should clarify a little more, just so you don't misinterpret what I meant. I did NOT escape from a fully formed choke lock, as I usually tap out if I find myself in such a hold. But let's face it, you can usually tell if someone is going for a particular restraint, and according to the rules I had set in place, doing a simulated eye-gouge gave me the opportunity to adjust my inferior position to a more advantageous one, and thus escape the inevitable BEFORE it got to the *point of no return*.

One last thing I'd like to share about eye-gouges, especially after hearing that comment made by Mr.Rutten (as funny as it was). It's true that he could *wait* until later to go, "OWW,my eye!" if the gouge were done as a press/push. You see, the eye can roll around quite a bit in its socket and the cornea is one remarkable "self-healing apparatus" found in the human body. But I defy anyone (including Bas Rutten) to not wince or recoil from a poking/jabbing eye gouge, as it's just too painful to not instinctively react. Even if I aim my spearhand at the "simulated" target I mentioned earlier, i.e. just above the eyebrow, almost anyone who can see it coming (i.e. excluding the blind) will most surely flinch.

 

Also too, let’s realize that the reason BJJ people say eye gouges don’t work against THEM is because they can position themselves away from someone trying to do this-NOT because eye gouges in general don’t work.

I don’t think you could do this against an experienced grappler or BJJ player, but a close friend of mine (a boxing coach actually) ended a street assault by shoving his thumb into someone’s eye.

 

Having done a minimum of grappling (as compared to MA which tend to focus on this type of engagement), I also am aware of how to position your head in certain holds so that it's relatively safe from pokes, jabs, tugs at the ear or hair, etc. Having said that, the guy in rear mount in that RNC tutorial video didn't seem to be doing it very much, or at least not emphasizing it, FWIW.

There are those who can "tough it out" when experiencing trauma, especially severe trauma, but they are few IMO (or else you might see MORE recipients of meritorious valor medals, hehe).

 

Not annoyed in the slightest, just - as I said - very sceptical (no need to read into the bas video, as I stated that plainly enough I thought?)

My contention is that what you described seems like a flawed method of practicing what is basically a 50/50 desperation technique at best and a technique which requires almost zero training at that. In fact you can't really train it at all anyway, as your method showed.

Your taking it on faith that that is how it would play out and that th ereaction woul dbe pronounced enough to allow escape (sparring/pressure testing is supossed to eliminate the need for speculation not be predicated upon it) your set up does not allow for that suposition to be tested... it's rigged to always work.

IMO it'd be better to train an actual escape that would work on the basis of body mechanics and positioning (which you can test and gain skill at) and then draw attention to the eye as a last ditch possibility or added dirt gamble.

Flinch is not the same as release or stop choking and not the same as relinquishing position. I would flinch myself... causing me to close my eyes and either adjusting my head at the least whilst still choking you.


Just so you know, this...

.. is possibley the worst strategy for escape I've ever heard LOL. It is nothing akin to what I was talking about regarding taking a two on one on the choking arm; the point of which was to relieve pressure on the neck and not suicidally set yourself up in a blood choke.:bang::hat:

It shows - respectfully - that your grappling approach is severly broken. If you are teaching these escapes I'd urge you to stop, and get your students proper outside instruction like CV so that they have a passable set of basic ground skills that they can rely on.

 

Convergencezone: I'm sorry but eye gouges, fish hooks, throat strikes and groin strikes work on every human being regardless of the style they study.To say "oh, an eye gouge doesn't work on me" means that the person has never been seriously eye gouged or is under the illusion no one in the world is better than him or meaner than him for that matter. As for "BJJ is the best on the ground" that really is up to each persons opinion, isn't it? I have met some BJJ "experts" who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Others were utterly fascinating at how fluidly they moved from joint lock to joint lock or even dislocated their own joints to get out of holds. The art doesn't make the fighter the fighter makes the art. I find what we do in Kuk Sool to be rather effective for our fighting mind set but then again I don't take fights the ground unless I get taken there in which case I fight my way back up or do what I can to get out. If I had to seriously suggest another art it would be Krav Maga; I have experience with it and I can say it's ground fighting and mind set is based on "take them our or get killed" when standing and "get up or get killed" on the ground. Too many "sport arts" out there for my taste these days.

My own personel take on BJJ is this: I do NOT want to go to the ground with someone. If that situation arises you can believe I want to have the general idea on what I'm doing with ground work but I dont' want to stay there for long. Not only that...think for a second: the ground. Not mats. The GROUND. Asphalt, glass, pebbles, etc. is not a place you want to take a fight! Let's see someone do those awsome knee spins on the asphalt or roll around and get slammed like it doesn't hurt. Uh-uh. Not to mention if you go to the ground your opponents friends might decide to join in and summarily stomp the crap out of you. OR you might be the one winning and your opponents friends might decide to join in and summarily stomp the crap out of you.

The way I teach in my school is this: if you manage to get them to the ground, or vice versa, there are not limits. Eye gouge, fish hook, bite, claw, grab the larynx and crush it, head butt, grab their testicles and squeeze, slam their head into the ground repeatedly, etc. and exit after a good 5-7 second thrashing.

Anywhoooooo! Rant over.

 

Killa_Gorillas:

The rules I instituted merely allowed eye gouges to not be forsaken. In looking back, I did not explain myself properly, as depending on how secure the hold or how severe the gouge, would dictate the appropriate "realistic" response (i.e. not always a tap-out, but maybe just a pause or less secure grip, etc.). As for a choke where the airway is completely cut off, I think you are being unfair in your assessment as it only takes a few seconds to render unconsciousness once this happens and maneuvering to ensure the airway remains open is the only sane approach which guarantees that you can manage to muster further resistance in an effort to escape. I never said I do a trade-off and put myself into position for them to do a blood choke, I was commenting on the fact that if it were me doing the choking and I was in position to do an airway choke, that if it was somehow thwarted yet I still had my arm around their neck, then I would try to implement a blood choke, knowing full well that I would need even more time for it to take effect (which means getting into better position to deal with all the struggling that inevitably comes with this less effective & more time consuming choking method).

Despite your attempt to sound respectful, you sure come off like you "know it all" and are a superior fighter. I know I've rubbed people the wrong way before in discourse here on MAP, and I thought you might like to know (in case you were unawares).

 

A willingness to 'go-to-the-ground' in a street fight is making one huge assumption – that the other person doesn't have a knife!

 

Re: 'Blood Choke'. Can we not call it a strangulation perhaps?

This is a great video on the subject: (It looks like someone has posted pretty much all of it too!)
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vA4wlH1jmY"]INSTRUCTIONAL - JUDO Neil Adams - Effective Fighting - Grappling - YouTube[/ame]

 

I think they aren't always as effective in every context due to a number of factors but most notably in this case the ease with which they can be avoided or defended against from a point of far superior position control. Nobody has said (as far as I know) that eye gouges will not hurt.

I agree. BJJ is not the best. I think it's just one of many methods that are soild. However thee is usualy quite a large degree of overlap between them all.

Not sure why this has turened into an opportunity to discuss the pros and cons of BJJ but...

Yep. But you will want to know what to do if you get there as you said. So training some solid grappling fundamental swill help. What will not help is not bothering because of some percieved philosophical dissonance and then relying on low percentage desperation tactics to escape.

Tired cliched argument that has been done to death and back in the above post really and based on the assumptions that 1) grapplers are always looking to fight on the floor regardless of context 2) they are alone 3) they are the one the bottom if the fight does hit the floor.

The fact the ground can be such a dangerous place to be is perfect justification for actually learning how to get the hell up if required. God forbid you end up there and find yourself a fish out of water.

What framework do you teach to enable them to execute these tactics effectively? What if they are stuck in a crucifix or laymans pin under someone who wrestled in highschool (us) or played rugby (uk) who is raining elbows and hammer fists into their face? eye gouge right? riiiiiiiight...

Just because you grapple doesn't mean you want to hang about on the floor all day but it does mean you more likely to be on top and more likely to be able to get up if that happens. Worth not dissmissing.

I get it, I do; I just don't think it's an effective way to spar/test the technique, for all the reasons I listed.

&

I know what you were saying. It's ridiculous. :hat: Why position your throat in the crux of their arm effectively setting up the blood choke for them (something you have to battle to achieve against someone with even basic grappling experience), when you could simply use your hands and fingers to create space and alleviate the choke and hopefully get your chin down?

Once someone has that arm in it's one step closer to you going to sleep.. which takes very little time in the right hands... and being RNCed properly does attact the windpipe too by the way even though the primary choking method is to close the carotids.

you did, whether you were aware of it or not I don't know...

... that is setting up the choke for them.

I'm not massively fussed if you find it disrespectful but I'm simply trying to be frank and objective. Its not personal. I think your posts display a distinct lack of knowledge about grappling... that doesn't mean I claim to be a huge authority (I certainly am not) or indeed a superior fighter (what are we 8? ). It also doesn't mean I therefore think you know nothing fullstop. I'm just stating things that I think are/should be self-evident.

 

Actually, you want to turn your chin towards the hand Unk, as per this video: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drRAvpsZnJY"]Escape UFC Style Choke submission (Rear Naked Choke aka Mata Leao) - YouTube[/ame]

 

I have another great way to escape from the seated RNC, but I ain't gonna give it away on here! You have to come to one of my seminars if you want to see it!

Only kidding! Here's a variation of it: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LN1VoJhtns"]Sambo Defense For Rear Naked Choke - YouTube[/ame]

 

Thanks for posting that video... its one I was looking for but couldn't find it!

 

And if you can spend the time after that Neil Adams' video, check out this set, starting with this one): [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdRIBYw6kNQ"]Choke Part 1 - YouTube[/ame]

 

Now that I am far too old for sport grappling, I find myself drawn ever-closer to this kind of thing: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHBXSkil8Tw"]Silat Suffian Bela Diri - Buaya (Crocodile) Groundwork - YouTube[/ame]

 

Well, it's not like I advocate using it ALL the time, but I don't ignore it either. Maybe you should just pretend that I didn't mention it at all...

Apparently you don't... You act like I've never grappled a day in my life. Simply because I did not go on to say that once your windpipe is no longer in position to be closed off by their arm, having maneuvered it towards the crook of their elbow, that the next thing to do is to wiggle your chin in there, so your jaw can intercede the pressure on the carotids. Instead I merely stated the FIRST thing to do, and then said to work on whatever escape presents itself. If you don't protect your windpipe, you might as well kiss your ass goodbye. Obviously, if their arm is not completely in position, you would want to go to the OPEN side (i.e. the hand) but once that hand gets across to your shoulder, it's easier to protect the windpipe by going to the crook of their elbow.

And here's a video of an escape from that choke-lock, which shows this alternate method of turning towards the elbow:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGehFPbYNIo"]Standing Rear Choke Escape[/ame]

I apologize for not stating things with the utmost clarity, but grappling is only a small fraction of what I practice and therefore I lack the nuance in terminology that naturally befalls practitioners of MMA, BJJ, Sambo, etc. Hopefully you will find it in your heart to forgive me for this flaw, and try to understand that while I don't grapple all that much, that I am not a newbie to how it works.

Sorry, Pugil, but "strangulation" when referencing the neck, could mean either the constriction of the airway OR the blood vessels. I have always gone with the simple terms of 'air choke' & 'blood choke' in order to designate exactly what was being constricted. Besides, weren't you the one criticizing me in another thread for being so damn technical WRT medical terminology?

My aversion to this method, Pugil (i.e. placing my throat near their hand), has to do with a type of air-choke which can be applied rather quickly AND quite easily, where the base of the thumb is placed above the Adam's Apple, the fingers being tugged at by the other hand. It's almost as effective as the RNC, which utilizes the forearm (i.e. the radius) to compress the windpipe. Transition from the figure-4 arm position of the standard RNC to this *clasped-hands* choke is virtually effortless, and I have made it work plenty of times when failing to get the more familiar choke hold on my opponent, but mostly where my hands are in close proximity to their throat (IOW it doesn't present itself as much if they move their neck away from my hands). [edit: this clasped-hands choke is similar to the lapel choke demonstrated near the end of that lengthy Neil Adams video you posted - sorry, as I hadn't taken the time to view all of it when I initially made this post :end edit]

 

It's a discussion forum. If you don't want to disscuss your methods, then maybe don't share them? But whatever mate, it's fine if you don't want to discuss the issues I see with your approach, I just thought they were worth mentioning.

The reason he is putting his chin in the crook of the elbow is because they were already RNCing him. He aleviated pressure and then tucked his chin.

I'm not going to delve in further as I think your posts stand for themselves at this point.

 

What the hell does that mean? But whatever, mate. It's fine with me if you don't want to continue the discussion...

 

In Judo they keep it simple by referring to all neck holds as 'chokes and strangulations', and I regard the word 'strangle' to be a more basic term than 'blood circulatory restriction and compression hold', or whatever term you might be likely to use anyway!

As for your escape, versus any other type of escape, the Sambo leg lock might have a nano-second chance against someone like Adams, as with him being a Judo player, it might be a surprise move to him. But, having said that, I reckon that once he got behind you it wouldn't matter much which way you turned your head – same goes for someone like me come to that!