Ummm, Almost every practitioner I have trained with (Family lineage holders and others) have done bag work with TCC. Or some kind of striking, I have had bagua teachers that taught the same. I have worked with all Jins with the bag, it does improve your striking ability. However, any fighter worth his salt will tell you striking a bag and striking a person are two entirely different things. Most teachers I have come across will teach how the student wants to learn. If a student is there to only learn form work...you learn form. If you are there to "get healthy" you learn form and exercises. If you are there to learn Self Defense and an MA you get the crap beat out of you. Thing is, in the US, most people don't come looking to get the crap beat out of them. So most teachers have to change their style of training. The teacher I currently train with will leave you with bruises, welts, sore joints, the whole 9 yards, yet he only has about 5-10 loyal students that will train this way. In the US (from what I have seen) people want to learn to fight, but not get hurt themselves. What? Have you been reading these posts? Where did anyone claim to strike stronger than a boxer? Where did anyone say "Boxer's wish they could me"? I mentioned they are all the same strikes just at different distances to opponents, I think it was Liokault who said something similar... Seriously FQ, where did you read that? **sorry for double post**
All of tha is irrelevant to what I'm asking - why is it that you almost never see any IMA heroes dare to demonstrate hitting the bag? Why is that? When they're quite happy to demo forms, compliant apps... butnever anything thaty could actually let people assess their real level? Why? And how long are you going to defend it before you say, god damn it - he's right? None of which means that there aren't great master out there - just that, I rather suspect that they aren't the ones bragging on the internet. I read when FreudGod and Wujibu both said something along the lines of "Boxers can become as powerful as IMAists... Why don't you stop defending those tactics, and start attacking them? Why? Why spend your time reinforcing the BS and defending it? Why? Which is a very snide way of saying that the IMA method produces people with the same power levels as Western boxing. I'd just like to see that - excusing Yiquan, of course, which adopted Western boxing - for good, obvious reasons.
Your chronic thread was always going to end up in a train wreck. Anyone who thinks their hitting power comes from this or that style is deluded themselves. 'Cos that is realism? There are enough good enough methods to be found all round, and no one ( or style) owns good hard training. Power training, or any other kind.
A punch is only a punch! On outside is not important how the power is generated. The only thing important is the result/effect. cloudhandz - I will not comment your stupid post.
Oh yeah, what's stupid about it. The only stupidness about it is reflected by the dumbness of the thread it is addressing. A style of fighting didn't give Tyson or Foremen their crazy level of punching power now did it? Take some responsibility, not lump it all on styles like tcc, which have obviosly failed you terribly. Boo hoo.
Took a few days longer than I intended (sorry) but I've removed all the off topicness and thread reopened. Please can we all lay off each other and get back to the topic, I hate having to lock threads down permanently.
Thanks for that. I can't stand Style vs Style Cr@p escpecially when it's :topic:. So just want to point out a few things here. 1. The bigger you are the harder you will hit. That's why there are wieght catagories. The boxer and the IMA guy weren't in the same wieght category so please don't compare them as is. Maybe more constructive to list their punching power in ratio to their actual mass. 2. Comparing Boxing to IMA strikes is like comparing apples and oranges. A good boxer is trained to punch through a target. This allows for two things. Firstly, if the hit connects it will rock the opponant back and improve chances of a KO. Seeing as a good mouth guard actually helps protects against KOs from strikes to the jaw and mandible, the boxer has to use this extra "trick" to help maximise his chances. Secondly, if the opponant leans back, the hit will still "touch". This may not do too much damage but if the fight goes to a points decision, every little "touch" helps to show agression (an important factor for judges). A good Kung Fu practitioner (not just IMA guys) won't punch through because they know it can over-balance them and unlike in Boxing, this leaves them open to a grapple. 3. One of my countries most famous boxers, Kosta Tzu (a former world champion) trains Iron Palm with a Kung Fu instructor. So please don't get the idea that Boxers are stupid meat heads that don't look outside their own system to increase their power generation. Maybe some IMA guys should start looking to Boxing now?
In boxing, if you're overbalanced, you get knocked out. We train to get our opponents to commit to a miss and step off balance, so we can blast them while they're defenseless. We also train to move and strike as relaxed as possible, to explode in the target instead of pushing through, to always remain balanced and in good alignment, and to be sensitive both to our opponents touches and to where they're going to move or strike. Our motto is "hit and don't get hit." We train perception to read how and where they'll punch so we can move at the last second and counter from a superior position. You might say that's a sort of "they don't move, I don't move. They move, I move first" kind of thing.
I am baffled...? Where does the strength come from really...the physical or internal or a mixture of both. Normally, I don't hit hard, no desire to- though under altered states of mind and body- I gain tremendous power and speed. For example: one time I kicked out of a police wagon after being locked in, this isn't a punch- but it is a strike- using muscles and mind and body. The design was made to be human proof. Yet, with a single kick I broke the door open and run off. I was...very young and very high...still, it happened. After that kick my leg hurt for months, the ligaments not the same. Later still, the leg remained damaged and after sparring with some bouncy Italian guy and then grappling which lead to a fall- I damaged the poor thing more later (though I did force that guy to tap out for his neck). The bones finally came right out of the socket, and my lower calf was literally dangling from the femur. I had to stop training and quite my job after that...I digress. The point is, that what was measured represents most likely a calm state, and it is very possible that someone else could generate more power when in an altered state- one filled with adrenaline and other hormones. I have had enough experience with my own body to observe the difference giving my state of mind. I am not disagreeing, merely adding angles to the question.
I think it would be a lot of fun to take up boxing! I used to box with my friends in the backyard...no rules really. How long does it take to train for a fight?
Hiya Dillon. I don't know if you a pro or not nor who you train / have trained with. I used to spar with a golden gloves guy (real jerk but he knew what he was doing). He utilised the "punching through a target" method I described. Not all the time, but enough for me to pick up on it. I've also seen it used mainly by other amatuers and in a few pro-fights, usually in the end rounds (fatigue maybe). Btw, I didn't mean to infer that Boxers intentionally went out of their way to become unbalanced. Rather, IMA guys tended to focus more on being "fully grounded" than most boxers. You will rarely find an IMA guy who raises onto the ball of their foot (even if uppercutting) nor an IMA guy fully extend their arms (even if going for a KO). Then again, very few IMA guys actually train to fight. Yes, you can also gain power from being in an altered state of mind, whether by pure adrenalin or with the help of drugs. I have known people to fight under the effects of combat drugs or even combat drug derivatives such as Speed. The big question though, is how do you feel the enxt day. If you were realxed and calm during the fight, then your chances of soreness and injury are going to be a lot less.
I'm not a pro. I'm not even technically an amateur yet (no record). I'm gunning for my first sanctioned fight by the end of December, hopefully. My gym produced a couple of the Vermont Golden Gloves champs last year, including the heavyweight champ, so I get to train with some pretty good amateurs. I have some experience with the "big three" CIMA. What I'm really intrigued with is Yiquan, since the aspect of IMA that I'm most interested in is the foundational exercises that are used to develop structure, connectedness, etc.. Yiquan seems to isolate these components, and fit them into a more...realistic (for lack of a better word), flexible, or evolved fighting structure. I want to investigate Yiquan, but can't find a school nearby, so I'm starting to dig for resources to begin my study.
That's cool. I thought you might actually be pro, cus your post was quite informative without any fan-boy cr@p. My boxing record is pretty non-existant. Been in three "pub boxing tournaments" (2 wins and 1 loss). Not interested enough, deidcated enough, nor good enough (I have very short reach for my wieght) to go pro. But kudos to you if you want to go pro. I've heard of Yiquan but don't know much more then a name. Sounds like a Kung Fu. Pretty interesting if you were a boxer who also trained kung fu (especially if it was an IMA).
Right now I box and train kyokushin primarily. I do work private lessons and train occasionally at at bajiquan/xingyiquan school that I attended for the last few years. I also spent a few years with the lineage holder for Ip style taijiquan. I love the flavor of CMA, and some of the training methods for structure and relaxation, but overall I think the training in CMA has gone somewhat astray. From what I've read, Yiquan has gotten back to what I consider likely to be the roots of CMA, and is taking an approach that I think is the one most likely to bring out what is good in CMA, in the modern world stage. That's why I'm intersted in Yiquan; I love Chinese martial arts, but I think most of them take a direction that is somewhat dishonest (either intentionally or mistakenly) in the modern world. We have formats to test arts, and great reasources to grow and evolve them, and it's frustrating to me that that doesn't happen. I just wish there was a Yiquan school near me so that I could investigate it hands on, rather than playing with what I can glean from reading about it and watching on youtube, and my own experimentation with the ideas behind it.
An example of hitting power and IMA: http://imperialtaichi.blogspot.com/2008/06/double-axial-rotation-using-yin-qiao.html Cheers, John
And delivering it through Tai Chi sword training [ame]http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=YpjrV7ID9s8[/ame] Cheers, John
this may be a little off topic,but whole body power means alot more then just striking. it needs to be tested,like i test mine. agreed! those who do not test what their art is lose out on the fruit of their labor. watch this vid,this is nice! [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs"]YouTube - Master Chen Bing's Push-Hand 2[/ame]
