*MOD NOTE* Big Will did not instigate this discussion he was responding to a post by garth discussing issues with certain Ninjutsu lineages which raised the issue of whether there was actually any strong evidence for the existence of Jesus. Garth, as you say, in the end it all boils down to faith. But it's not about blind faith. After all, is there really ANYTHING we can be sure of? We can't even be 100% sure of out own existance. What I have seen and experienced is enough to make me believe that the history of our martial art - at least to some extent - is genuine. 100% accuracy never exists, so naturally there will be holes. But the main point is - even though I don't have "evidence" in front of me, I can still have enough experience and logical thinking to "believe". Maybe, in this case, I have been particularily lucky with which people I have met, who has told me what, and what I have seen in my relatively short time in the Bujinkan. And maybe you have been particularily unlucky in those regards. The same goes for christianity, which you are so quick to attack at any possibility. This, btw, only shows how poor you are at debating. There are plenty of scholars and scientists who are sure of that a historical characted named Jesus (or Jeshua, etc) existed. Yet you say it as if it is already proven without a shadow of a doubt that he did not exist (not just in this thread, every time you get the chance). Now, believing in Jesus as our Lord and saviour is one thing - but saying there is no "evidence" for his physical historical existance, is in my opinion not too bright. We have people who believe they met and lived nearby a person they called "Jesus" (or Jeshua, etc), and wrote about this. (Or at least people who knew people who believe they met and lived with this man). Is it logical to instantly think "oh wait. No such person existed at all."? It's kind of like with my childhood friend. When we were 14 or so, he talked about a very cool martial artist he knew, who was in his late twenties, who could levitate. He swore he had seen this guy levitate. We hadn't seen this guy at all, so we thought he didn't exist. Six years later, I had him as a teacher in a Photoshop and Illustrator course. We talked a little about martial arts. I haven't seen him levitate, but I know he exists. If you have strong beliefs, fine. But don't be too quick to jump to stating things as facts, when in reality, even facts are interpretations. It's only natural that most "evidence" for Jesus is found within christian texts. And it's only natural that most "evidence" for Takamatsu not making up certain ryuha is found within the X-kans and with people who knew him - or people who know people who knew him. If you can't see that connection... well, the Bruce Lee quote "it's like a finger pointing towards the moon. Concentrate on the finger and you miss all the heavently glory" comes to mind.
Big Will posted No your putting words in my mouth. i did not say that it was proven that Jesus did not exist, I said there no contemporary evidence. thats evidence written at the time he lived preferably by an eye witness. Can you provide some. Name me one Contemporary document that mentions Jesus. No we dont. Not first hand accounts any way. Scholars believe the first gospel is as late as 70 AD. So no we have no first hand accounts of anyone that believed they met Jesus and lived near him. Well firstly i never said he didnt, secondly its also unwise to say fairies dont exist either. What are you being serious? Secondary evidence. You mean Takamatsu because he is the only contemporary guy that mentions him. Thats called hearsay And the phrase that comes to mind to me is argumentum ad ignorantiam http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
Big Will for you [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXZAElV-yi8&feature=related"]YouTube - There's no evidence for the Jesus story[/ame] Se at 4:34 Sorry about the bad lip sync [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aEAAmf0jrk&feature=related"]YouTube - The Historical Character Of Jesus - The Atheist Experience #585[/ame] Although maybe this ought to go to the off topic religious section. But the point is will you need to do your research before you post about the evidence for Jesus. Garth
Gary, you need to take a trip down to Chillicon Valley and check in to Chillton Hotel for a few nights. There is no such thing as 100% secure evidence. You need to understand that. I guess the newspapers from back then have all been recycled... Matthew and Luke of the twelve apostles? I agree. About what? Children often say and believe a lot of things. Is he the only one, or the only one YOU - with your EXTREMELY limited and small knowledge of this - know of? And stop posting stupid videos. For every video you post with people saying Jesus didn't exist, I'll post one saying he did exist. You're so much older than me yet you still don't understand that nothing in life is black or white, right or wrong. Face it - you know nothing, I know nothing. Some people might know more, but in the end, they know nothing anyway. If more people understood this, we'd have less conflicts and know more - instead of just arguing we'd actually learn more.
Big will posted When did I ever say that there was? Post 64 above, I said Stop accusing me of saying things I never said. Sorry when are Luke and Mathew contemporary. Luke and mathew gospels date to about 70 to 80 AD at their earliest. We dont even know if the gospels were written by Mathew and Luke as the names did not appear on the gospels until much later. My son believes in Ben 10, doesnt mean he's real. Then provide peer read evidence that supports your view. The point of the videos was to do just that. Just like the woman in the clip that said Jesus existed she had no evidence. And neither do you. Believing in something does not make it real. Have you actulally read my posts. I have said theres no evidence for Jesus and said therefore I cannot say if Jesus Christ was real. thats not a black and white answer thats saying I dont know. Yet you come on here without any evidence and say he is. Thats a very black and white answer. What utter rubbish. So the man who fixes your car knows nothing, the man who teavhes you martial arts knows nothing, Hatsumi knows nothing? Come on thats just a cop out. Its an argument used when people are loosing and they say "well everything just opinion and no one really knows anything" Whos arguing, i'm presenting debate. in fact if we had more debate in the world, instead of the close minded "Believe this or else" we would have less war. Garth
Big Will wrote Source please No but there is peer read evidence. Peer read evidence means the evidence has been looked at by several scholars in the field and it pretty much agreed that its good evidence. which is the opposite of non peer read evidence which is "its right because i say so" Let me explain further. science is not fact. Its theory, but theories are accepted because they have been peer reviewed. thats does not mean we accept them as fact just good theories backed up with good evidence. Well I tend to believe things we have evidence for. Do you believe in a 6000 year old earth, or that the earth is the centre of the solar system, or that disease is caused by demons? I would hazard a guess you dont, and do you know why? Peer reviewed scientific data. Which scholars sources please. That would be better than we have at the moment. We back it up with other evidence A dated document that mentioned jesus. You see if we did find a document that mentioned a preacher called jesus and it was shown to be dated to the early first century at the time of christ, then its probably not a forgery, as you would noyt know about the burden of proof placed on later christians to prove jesus. Hense why there are a lot of forgeries from the middle ages. Therefore any evidence from the time period of Jesus which is contempoary by eye witnesses we would have to take seriously, but unfortunately its lacking Garth
Gary, you are right - ALL scholars and scientists agree with you regarding Jesus. How dumb of me to think otherwise...
Notice how I'm not saying anything about your bickering with Gary? And that it's difficult to refrain from mentioning a black-and-white worldview when doing so?
Big will posted Will you posted a statement, that was I asked you for the source, ie what scholars believe this. You have come back with none, but you have used the argument to say Which is a way for you to get out of finding a source and suggesting i'm stupid. But Will you have made a statement but cannot back it up. thats the fact Garth
Do you want me to find you a list of scientists and scholars active in various Creationist organisations? Would that suffice to back up my statement? Or do you want secular scholars? A quick google search gives you a wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus Check it out, several sources there. Now can we please concentrate on ninjutsu ? Can you comment on what Dr. Friday mistakenly said about Takamatsu and ninja games, which you posted early in this thread?
Big Will posted No because these are not scholars. Most of them have fake degrees from fake universities. They manipulate the data to support their view. Many also believe in a 6000 year old earth, dinosaurs living with man, and a literal interpretation of Noahs ark. All I might add those goes contrary to scientific data. And as i say this Nutjob posts. Lets look at the link Unacredited scholl possibly means its not a real university. But you point is mute as he says But th problem is that some of the sources he uses to claim there was a Jesus on which the myth was based i.e. Tacitus are again not contemporary. Tacitus was born in 56 Ad at the earliest, and what he says about Jesus is Note he uses the word Christus and NOT Jesus. Why is this significant? Well because teh word Christ does not mean Jesus it mean roughly Messiah. And there were many messiahs in the days of the 1st Century and anyway some scholars have argued about the authenticity of some of what tacitus wrote in regard to this Christus. Garth
Big Will anyway lets not focus on Jesus and the authenticity of him. I have asked for Contemporary sources for him. So far you have not posted any. So until you do lets not get into a "Jesus is real" "no he's not" Argument. As I say I have stated that there are no contemporary sources for Jesus, you only have to find one to prve me wrong. Garth
Big Will two points You posted: My argument concerns contemporary sources of which there are none. The passage you quote says... So if you are quoting things that back up my argument, what exactly is your point? Secondly: I'll get back to you on this. I need to read it first along with some stuff in the Sanmyakus where Hatsumi give a real good opinion of the author of the Bugei Ryu Ha Daijiten. Its Saturday, so i dont plan to be on here very much. Big Will/Nutjob Finally you both seem to be under the mishaprehension that I am A/ Saying that Jesus never existed. I never said that B/ That all scholars agree that Jesus never existed. I never said that either, although i have asked for sources of ones that do. Your turning this into a straw man argument, and trying to score points against me for things I never said. My point is: "Theres no contemporary evidence for Jesus" Garth
I can't be bothered checking this because this argument is stupid. It's two people circling each other not listening to the other but talking AT each other. So this is just a technical point to consider. From what I can remember Christus means "anointed one". Messiah means "saviour". To give a somewhat extreme example. George W. Bush could be described as the "anointed one" or "Christus". Americans voted for him to lead them in world affairs. However that does not mean he was their "saviour" or "Messiah". It's not always a leaders job to save their people. Sometimes they're just filling a power vacuum and sometimes their leadership is a deception.
Well, there must be something behind it to spur constantine on to bring together the bible, unless he never met Toda in the first place!!
There is enough reason to question Jesus' historicity however we should acknowledge that there is a lot of bad scholarship out there regarding Jesus' ahistoricity (making it reasonable to suppose historicity) and no argument for ahistoricity has yet been sufficiently proven. We should assume he existed until argument for historicity have been refuted and argument for ahistoricity better explain all the details. Here's Richard Carrier's review of Earl Doherty's book for a details analysis: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/jesuspuzzle.html Here's a good post which sums up the three possibilities regarding Jesus:
The key points of the Jesus myth exist as far back as the various Egyptian cults and in particular with the god Horus. Horus incidentally also hid in the reeds as an infant to avoid being killed and battled a Pharaoh to take back his fathers kingdom or free his people. So i guess the Egyptians knew a good bargain when they saw it and got a two for one deal. If anybody like Jesus ever existed. He lived so long ago it will be impossible to prove. There are enough practically identical myths and legends to reasonably assume Jesus is just another myth created by people.
I have an another website of history of Jesus see it: http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/history-of-jesus-christ-faq.htm
