Historical documentation

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Dao, Sep 10, 2009.

  1. Dao

    Dao Valued Member

    It is my understanding that Mr Hatsumi has, in his possession, scrolls and old documents etc pertaining to many of the Ryu that make up modern the Bujinkan Taijutsu.

    Is there anyone on this forum with an intimate understanding of the history of the Bujinkan and the Ryu that make up modern ninjutsu, or access to the documents rumoured to be owned by Mr Hatsumi?

    I am particularly interested in any information regarding Tsutsumi Ryu, Kukushin Ryu and Takagi Ryu that is beyond, or different to, that which can be found through a basic internet search.

  2. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    What kind of information are you looking for? :confused:
  3. skuggvarg

    skuggvarg Valued Member

    Dear Dao,

    Do you mean Tsutsui Ryu as the branch off of Takagi Ryu? Havent heard about Tsutsumi Ryu...

    Regards / Skuggvarg
  4. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Dao posted

    Dao try the following works

    Any books by Hatsumi particularly the most recent ones ie sword, Bojutsu and Taijutsu.

    Ninpo Secrets by Tanemura

    Mr Tanemuras Hanbo Book

    Amatsu Tatara Magazine, Bufu Magazine (Genbukan Publications)

    Sanmyakus, Tesuzan etc (Bujinkan publications)

    Kiba Koshiras Kukishin ryu Bujutsu book

    Dare I say it, Ninja Realm, Musubi magazines.

    Serge Mols "Classical fighting arts of Japan"

    Fumon Tanakas "Samurai Fighting arts"

    Arnaud Couserges "Amatsu tatara Hibumi" Book

    Paul Richardsons "Schools of the Bujinkan"

    Thats should keep you going for a while

  5. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

  6. Dao

    Dao Valued Member

    Thankyou very much for the replies. I will look into these sources.

    I am defnately looking for information on Tsutsumi Ryu not Tsutsui Ryu.
    I am lead to believe there was a Tsutsumi Ryu in Iga that is mentioned in relation to ninjutsu.
    I have had great difficulty locating any further information regarding this school.

  7. ruha

    ruha Valued Member

    Tsutsumi Houzan ryu

    ..do you mean Tsutsumi Houzan ryu?
    According to a reliable source, Tsutsumi Houzan ryu is mentioned in the densho for Kukishinden ryu... and when looking in the denkei for Kukishinden ryu we find that the eight soke is named Tsutsumi Hakushi Mori Ritsuzan...

    // Pertti Ruha
  8. Dao

    Dao Valued Member

    Thankyou Ruha,
    That is an interesting piece of information.
    Do you have a translation of the Kukishinden Ryu Densho?

    Any information on Tsutsumi Hozan/Houzan Ryu would be most appreciated, the Tsutsumi family connection begins and end with Tsutsumi Yamashiro no Kami Hozan in relation to THR, however this is not to say that Tsutsumi Hakushi Mori Ritsuzan is of no relation.

    I have found online references to a "Tsutsumi Ryu" in relation to ninjutsu in the Iga region and am trying to find validating references to confirm or deny it's existence.

  9. poryu

    poryu Valued Member

    No one outside of Japan has an accurate or even close translation of any of the kuki documents. these are safely guarded by the soke and the shihan.

    Even if someone did have a translation there is no way they would share it
  10. Dao

    Dao Valued Member

    Ok well thank you for that information.

    I have seen the lineage for the various kuki ryu online in numerous places and they are generally the same across the web. Can I assume that these lineages are inaccurate based on what you have said?

  11. noname

    noname Valued Member


    Lineage strikes me as the sort of thing that would be openly available, assuming the school is somewhat public.

    but I really have no idea.
  12. poryu

    poryu Valued Member


    the lineages are correct. For example the version for Kukishinden that I published in my book was given to me direct form Hatsumi sensei. Others appear in various other Japanese books.

    Ryuha have no problem publishing or giving out their lineage as its almost bragging about their pedigree.

    However densho are priced items and not given away unless earned. They contain not just history but the kata, philosophy, kuden and personal thoughts etc passed down from one generation to the other.

    To get a densho you must pass each level that the densho is for. You dont get it in advance and they are kept as personal items.

    However this does not stop family members selling them once the owner of the densho or makimono has passed on. japan is full of shops that sell them. But the current members of the Kuki schools who are still alive and active will not allow you to copy the densho they have
  13. ruha

    ruha Valued Member

    Tsutsumi Houki

    According to Shinsen Bujutsu Ryusoroku (printed 1834) Tsutsumi Houzan ryu originated from Tsutsumi Houki no Kami Houzan [堤伯耆守宝山] (sometimes also romanjized as Tsutsumi Hakushi Mori no Houzan/Hozan) at the beginning of the Muromachi period (~1335). He was a daimyo in Shimotsuke fief and also a ko-shinto priest.
    His sogo bujutsu ryuha was the first one to use the name yawara and included also kumi-uchi, kenjutsu, sojutsu, torinawa and kusarigama etc. One of their specialities was the use of furizue, a five foot staff with a hidden chain and a weight.

    According to this site ( http://kobe.cool.ne.jp/ikkansai/syohan.htm ), they had dojo's in Totsukawa, Himeiji, Okayama, Takanabe, Kitsuregawa, Numata and Koube during the Edo period, so it was a rather large school.

    Here you can see a bit from their Honden Mokuroku;


    If you compare his name with the name of the Kukishinden soke;
    [堤伯耆守宝山] Tsutsumi Houki no Kami Houzan (THR)
    [堤伯耆守律山] Tsutsumi Houki no Kami Ritsuzan (Kukishinden)
    ..you can see that the differences in names is only one kanji, and since the japanese always been changing their name during their lifetime, it is possible that this is one person!?

    cheers // Pertti
  14. poryu

    poryu Valued Member

    Hi Ruha

    good info that was.

    if you look at the Kuki family they all have 'Taka' (eg Yoshitaka Moritaka) in their name. The Tokugawa had 'Ie' in their name. I think the Takenouchi family (Takenouchi Ryu) also do the same thing

    The difference in name can also denote something like father and son. Not saying thats the case here, just suggesting a possiblity
  15. Dao

    Dao Valued Member

    From the research I have done on Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu the founder was Tsutsumi Yamashiro no Kami Hozan (堤山城守宝山).

    I must confess that I have never come across the name Tsutsumi Houki no Kami Houzan (堤伯耆守宝山) but then again I have never seen the Shinsen Bujutsu Ryusoroku. Does anyone have any English language references for this?

    I thank you all very much for this assistance. I have been researching this THR for many years but have never consulted ninjutsu folk before.

    Poryu, what is the name of your book?

  16. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    Just out of curiosity, what kind of research have you done?

    I am just wondering because lots of people call what they do "research" in this area when in fact they are just reading around on the internet and non-japanese books. Of course, that can be research too - depending on the cause (i.e. are you researching for a thesis or book, or are just interested about it).
  17. ruha

    ruha Valued Member


    I believe that Yamashiro no kami and Houki no kami are honorary titles... the first meaning "mountain castle director" and the second "senior director".. perhaps used in different phases in his life?

    The honden mokuroku I mentioned earlier is from 1832 and was given to some person with the name "Uchida Kenshin". Does anyone know if he could be related to the Uchida ryu tanjo jutsu?

    Here is the THR Yoroi gumi makimono from 1721 enclosed;
    This one was given to some "Taguchi den no Susumu Hidesada"
  18. Dao

    Dao Valued Member

    Thank you all again.

    You are possibly quite right.
    From what I know of Tsutsumi Hozan he did travel around a bit.
    The Yamashiro no Kami may have been due to him being a mountain castle dweller, however I feel it is probably due to him being from the Yamashiro province.
    Perhaps the Houki no Kami referred to his position whilst Yamashiro n Kami referred to where he hailed from.

    Does anyone have dates for Tsutsumi Huoki no Kami? Just to verify they are one and the same person. Tsutsumi Yamashiro no Kami Hozan was alive around the mid to late 14th C.

  19. Dao

    Dao Valued Member

    I started researching for general interest and then for the development of a paper for my shodan grading.
    I special interest was in tracing modern THR and it's spread but my interest naturally leaned toward the early history of this style.

    There is a bit of information circulating regarding this style, much of which is conjecture, misinterpretation or misinformation.
    Most of my information regarding the modern spread has come through American and European sources whereas the early history has come through a mixture of Japanese and Western sources.

  20. skuggvarg

    skuggvarg Valued Member

    Dao, Im curios to hear what your sources say about the following prominent figures in THR. Especially if you have any information on the birth and death dates:

    -Kakuno Happeita (Hachiheita)
    -Ishitani (Ishiya) Matsutaro
    -Ishitani (Ishiya) Takeo
    -Yagi Ikuguro
    -Takamatsu Yasaburo

    Regards / Skuggvarg

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