The extra range from a boxing cross comes from an increased torso twist. Add to this increased power coming from a drop step footwork that moves the foot out at a 45 degree angle, not straight at the opponent. The footwork allows for the triangle between the fist and the two shoulders to be sharper at the point of impact. One thing that I believe is going on is that boxing starts with training to punch in a relaxed state. Then when a boxer goes into sparring, they lose this relaxed state and their punches tend to be more just with the arms. Boxer's learn fairly early on that they need to relax and let the technique do the work... but they also get stronger which also increases the power of their punches. Karateka, however, start off training in a very rigid manner in that the movements are isolated. It isn't until you get to makiwara training on a regular basis that the first thing a karateka is often told is they must completely relax and use full body movement when striking the makiwara pad. Chinen Sensei would just shake his head in disappointment when I first struck makiwara. I thought I had good form and power, but I was striking too rigid and he could see it. I really didn't understand at the time what was going on, I guess I didn't get it until later. What I see as kind of secret is something that is developed in karate that is kind of forgotten in boxing... at least it doesn't seem to be a priority of many that have informal boxing training. That is the quick acceleration of using the leg to bring the hip forward. Since the hips and shoulders move together, this immediately generates a lot of acceleration into the strike. I include this hip forward using the leg into my striking after the drop step and as part of the torso twist. I feel my power in punches has increased greatly as a result of this in my years of training.
The hip movement you're describing is called koshi in karate circles, and just because footwork in most dojo drills are linear does not mean they are lacking in angular footwork. That's why they have tai sabaki. Karate striking techniques should also be relaxed, the only time they stress tension is at the moment of impact. Otherwise you shouldn't be tense as that'll just slow you down. This depends on the training alone and not on the system itself.
When it comes to striking boxing is king - certainly for sport. Look at K1 you have fighters from all style. Yet they all punch with a boxing technique. Boxers hit harder and score more knockouts.
I only know two guys who box regularly. To me it seems that speed and body movements are the two things that separate boxing from ma's. Plus a boxer spends so much more time punching than we do. I know when I'd hold a shield or bag for them they'd knock me backwards almost every time where I've only had a very small number of martial artists who could do that.
Lol, explanation fail. :bang: Let me correct myself. (If I screw this up, then... I give up, and offer the excuse of my pain killers being responsible for altering my mental abilities for processing information). I failed to contemplate the sparring aspect of Karate... I was more referring to drill work side of practice where a karate-ka would stand square on (Heiko Dachi). Whether you punch at or through has to do with distance (how far away your are from your opponent or target) and rotation (feet, hips, shoulders etc. the works). Of course Boxers use their hips (feet first, hips second, shoulders third and then lastly but not lest the punch itself). I had a brain fart moment. :hammer: What I meant was, its not as evident as in Karate (at first glance, or to the untrained eye). The only real big difference between Karate and Boxing is stance (and thats for obvious reasons). A karate-ka would probably more likely stand in a stance like Saisan Dachi. Boxer's stance: Karate-ka's stance in sparring: In Boxing the problem with a stance like Saisan Dachi would be the following: The solution for attaining more reach and power with a stance like Saisan Dachi with a punch, for an example, the jab would be to pivot the front foot slightly inwards while rotating the shoulders. You won't get exactly the same reach, but you will have more than before if you don't. And of course for the cross its just a matter of pivoting the back foot inwards again and rotating the shoulders. The hook is the same. This is what I do (or did ) In Muay Thai. Here's Bas Rutten (he breaks spleens): [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LEQJtWap0M"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LEQJtWap0M[/ame] Hopefully, I've redeemed myself. :whistle:
It's hard to pin down one specific stance as a boxing one though, as depending on the type of fighter some do actually fight more square to their opponent as it allows for harder punches. Pacquiao is a good example of that, you can see him square up more when he's blasting his opponent. You'll also get some guys who fight more side on to their opponent so they can score with their jab a lot. Also, the karateka sparring stance you have a picture of isn't correct either, as those who favor traditional sparring tend to fight typically from zenkutsu dachi, where the rear foot is turned outward at a 45 degree angle. That's actually a pretty square on zenkutsu dachi, and good for some styles, but others teach with the hanmi right off the bat, so you aren't totally square with your opponent. This is actually so when you execute say a reverse punch, you can "lock" your hips into the movement. This movement is very similar to when you execute say a down block into kiba dachi, then without changing position turn your feet with your reverse punch into zenkutsu dachi. It's the same feeling, just without assuming the horse stance if you will.
re: zenkutsu dachi: i don't know what the kyok standard is, but the way bas did it is pretty much in line with the hayashi-ha ****o-ryu zenkutsu, which is very wide (almost like a shotokan's, but not quite) to allow complete turning of the hips for read hand techniques.
When I learned zenkutsu dachi, it was approximately shoulder width the feet should be apart, so pretty close to Bas' stance in that video.
I learned zenkutsu dachi as shoulder width but was probably two shoulder width in length. For fighting we shortened to Han-zenkutsu dachi (half front stance) which was about the same as a boxer's stance but the back leg was kept straight.
Yes <3 Bas Rutten Hapuka, don't get too caught up with stance. It is the movement at the hip that determines the footwork, and the footwork determines the stance. Not the other way around. The power of a punch is going to be based on movement, pivot points, alignment and structure. If you take the same pivot point through the opposite hip and shoulder and apply the punch at longer versus shorter range, the amount of torso rotation for the longer ranged punch is going to be greater. When you shorten a boxer's cross/punch to hit a closer target, you get something very close to the karate punch. Because of the lesser amount of torso rotation, the importance of the back leg to drive the hip for a reverse punch can be seen more. The use of the back leg is important both in boxing and karate, so it isn't that they are different, only that with a larger torso rotation, the driving of the hip with the back leg is not as evident. If you just compare karate to boxing and say that karate is just closer in striking, then the two are basically the same as far as punching... the difference is in the range. Now to back up what I say, my theories on the lunge punch in karate come into play. In almost all martial arts outside of karate, the lunge punch is done with a vertical fist (side fist). The lunge punch being where you step forward and punch with the same side hand as the foot that is in front. This is a long ranged straight punch with the elbow kept in (e.g. down). The main power comes from the structure exhibited by the sharper triangle formed by the two shoulders and the fist. Karate, however, rotates the fist on the lunge punch. My theory is that this lunge punch is not really a lunge punch but when you take the karate reverse punch and you apply it at a longer range with more torso rotation. So rather than step and punch... it is the other foot that steps (falling/drop step) first out at an angle and then the punch comes, the rear leg follows based on the increased torso rotation (since the hips and shoulders move together). If the back leg was bent, the need for a step forward is not as great... so then the lunge punch done this way, would not have a step but just the rotation like a boxer's cross. So my theory is that the karate punch and the boxing punch come together when you change the ranges. Closer in range and boxing cross becomes more the karate reverse punch. Longer ranged punch and the karate reverse punch becomes more like the boxing cross. P.S. if anyone can help me find a few videos I could use as examples. I already posted (twice) Mas Oyama with his reverse punch where he rotates more and allows the rear leg to come forward. There are two other videos I'm looking for. One was where a famous karateka punches using reverse punch as his opponent... the opponent turns sideways to evade the punch, but then the karateka allows his rear leg to come forward and he sweeps out the front leg of the opponent who falls to the ground. The other is showing a tournament footwork drill where you start left foot forward, the left foot moves back into cat stance and the right foot shoots forward with a right punch. This move was shown to me in a seminar by a tournament champion who said this is how he scored most of his points (using this punch). Both these examples demonstrate that the lunge punch in karate is a reverse punch with more rotation for range and presumably power.
You step through,rear hand becomes the forward hand =on impact it is now by definition a leading straight. Reverse punch=on impact striking member is from opposite side of body to front foot.A leading straight cannot be defined as a reverse punch or rear cross with more rotation because once that step is taken then by definition they're different animals than they were,it doesn't matter if the hand was formerly in the rear position. I've seen boxers use the step thru to good effect,but it's not as powerful as a rear straight. It isn't in Fu Hok Hung either,so I'm not sure why it would be in karate,they have similar dynamics. This wording -"That is the quick acceleration of using the leg to bring the hip forward." -" When you shorten a boxer's cross/punch to hit a closer target,....the importance of the back leg to drive the hip for a reverse punch can be seen more." I'm unsure if you mean the leg is the initiating force,rather than the waist turn-if so that's structurally slower than the boxing dynamic. As to the importance of the rear leg in regards to a straight right,it can be used at any range for augmentation,ideally right at impact,but power generation in a short rear straight isn't dependent on participation of the rear leg adding anything aside from it's usual support role. "...with a larger torso rotation, the driving of the hip with the back leg is not as evident."-----It may very well be non-existent,depending on the individual,or the moment. It's not about ranges,the mechanics are simply different,and in the first quote at the top you point to it-Karate,among many Eastern systems,requires the participation of the rear leg in an active role in power generation for a rear straight,boxing doesn't. We've been mainly dealing with the rear straight ,the difference in mechanics between karate and boxing only widens when hooks and uppercuts come into play. Just to clarify "slamming the door"-You are the door,your hinge is the forward hip joint you're folding into on the straight front leg.
No. It is a reverse punch. I've posted this video now 3 times alone in this thread. The punch is shown at about 16-20 seconds where there is the right punch with the right foot moving forward (the slow motion of the punch at 18 seconds shows the punch is a reverse punch but the rear leg is allowed to come forward, it happens so fast real time you can't see that easily unless you are looking for it): [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDpcaowUp0g"]Mas Oyama Fighting‏ - YouTube[/ame] Power generation is fairly vague reference to the over all mechanics. I specifically mean that engaging the legs adds acceleration to the hip movement. One of the first lessons in boxing is with foot work and using in the drop step (I believe it is more formally call the falling step) with the cross. Second lesson is to add the shoulder twirl (a.k.a. shoulder whirl or torso twist) to the drop step. Because the shoulder twirl is done with totally relaxation, people often hit harder than they did before as a result... hence, the possibility of self-injury if they hit something hard without proper alignment or wraps. One of the first lessons in karate is to isolate the reverse punch... keeping elbows in, shortening the movement in the hips and shoulders and adding the use of the leg to drive the hip forward (generate acceleration). Second lesson is to learn full body relaxation and movement (e.g. makiwara training). So where they are different, IME, is in the use of the drop step in boxing instead of the use of the rear leg in karate. Where they are the same is that both use full body relaxation and movement. What I'm talking about is the reverse punch where you start with the drop step (front foot) with a "touch and go" feeling... when the foot drops and touches the ground, this initiates the hand moving to the target with the rear leg aiding in accelerating the hip forward and the shoulder twirl done with total relaxation. This combines all the mechanics of boxing and karate reverse punches into the same delivery system. This is why in my experience the boxing and karate punches use the same mechanics only different because of the range of the punch. e.g. Shorter rotation for shorter ranged striking. Edit: For simplicity, I did not talk about other mechanics such as sharper triangles and engaging the rear of the shoulder for power, etc. but of course there are these and other mechanics involved just on the physical side of things. Since you don't agree, that's fine. I've stated my case. The difference between these techniques is in the use of different pivot points and the target of the strike. The mechanics are the same, IME. Also, if you are not using engaging your legs in punching, your rotation will be slower. I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Sit in a chair and punch... you won't have as much power as if you can use your legs, whether it is boxing or karate. This video already posted is better than I can explain. Bas addresses the rear leg in 2:30-3:02 in the following video: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LEQJtWap0M"]how to fight 01-Striking how to punch correctly‏ - YouTube[/ame] Ah thanks for the clarification. That analogy never made much sense to me, but I guess it makes sense to others. The reason is that I was taught that hinges don't create power, pistons and gears create power. So what I was taught was the use of pivot points, not hinges. So a hinge would be a joint. If I rotate on my left leg, for example and use that as my pivot point, my right punch would have no power. Conversely, proper pivot points would be between joints. So for my right reverse punch, I would usually punch using a pivot point halfway between my center and the end of my left shoulder (what I call the middle of my left shoulder). In this manner, I generate power because I am pivoting around a point that is not a joint but instead between joints. So anyway, being the door on a hinge didn't make any sense to me for generating power. I instead thought it meant that I was slamming the door I am applying force between two hinges... myself as one end and the door hinge as the other end, so the end of the door with the door **** hits with a combined force. I also thought that because I'm relaxed with a punch, it is like the wind. If I misunderstood, then so be it. I really don't understand how being a door generates any power. Being like wind, however, is the relaxed force that drives the door to slam. The pivot point on the door would be where I put my hand on the door to slam it, somewhere halfway between the middle of the door and the end of the door that has the door ****. Sorry for my confusion. What you said about "folding in on the hip joint" does clarify the action better because I can see folding in on a joint as a result of a pivot point somewhere not on the joint (this is an example of the use of a hinge as a piston for power). I would put the pivot point as maybe an inch to the inside of the hip joint. Thanks for the discussion.
Looks like kosaho, a switch step, to me, which would still technically make it an oitsuki. That's just from what I see though. Karate also uses a falling step for their strikes, as that's one of the best ways to get all your bodyweight behind the blow. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJfFg82XZr8"]Yori ashi gyaku zuki by Kagawa sensei MORE ABOUT KARATE AT :www.keishinkandojo.org‏ - YouTube[/ame]
Yeah, karate uses the falling step. That's what I've been saying that the mechanics are the same. In karate, however, I have found that the falling step is discouraged early on because it is said to telegraph intentions, so instead it becomes usually a weight shift. IME with boxing, it is more of a progressive approach, starting with the falling step and working your way to shorten the step to a smaller step, eventually it becomes only a step of inches, much more hidden. So I believe it is kind of a fault in the way some karate is trained to skip the falling step power as part of basics. On the other hand, karate does teach the use of shorter pivots which unlike what people think (one strike one kill), the use of shorter pivots allows for less time between repeated strikes. So, IMHO, karate is better suited for the use of close in repeated striking. I wonder if anyone has come across anything in their studies to confirm my theory. However, I must conceded that IMHO, many don't punch using good pivot points. I've seen more than a few times when even black belts in karate appear to be using pivot points too close to the center line, creating a situation where much of the power is going back instead of forward into the target. So for all the good examples that fall into my belief that karate and boxing use the same mechanics, there are those other examples that seem to contradict my belief, and unfortunately, my only conclusion is that they are not punching right. Probably not a great way to start a conversation for exchanging information. One of the best examples of use of falling step, use of correct pivot points, use of the rear leg to engage the hip, use of the hip and shoulder rotation, etc. that I have seen is this guy. Go to about 4:02 minutes (near the end) to see the examples. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlYok3A09HA"]Kimura Sensei‏ - YouTube[/ame]
I hate to say it, but it sounds more like the fault of the teacher for not understanding why the step is used. Even in basic floorwork you can see the step being utilized.
I can only blame a teacher for 50% of it. I really didn't know any better myself and at the time the explanations made sense to me. So 50% is my fault too. The use of a step to add power was sort of neglected in my karate training. Instead, more time was spent on drilling movement in a manner that did not telegraph my intentions or leave me open to a foot sweep or throw. This type of drilling was more useful in point fighting, IMHO, than in full contact.
