hey guys, i do karate and i find the head punches used by boxers more effective than the ones we use. so can anyone post some useful links for this techniques? yuen.
they are exactly the same technique. you use your center of mass, moved by your legs and core musculature, to accelerate your arm and hit the guy in the head with your fist. they don't work when you do them wrong.
The execution of punches in Boxing and Karate are similar but do have their differences. Stance and foot pivoting are the main ones. A Karate-ka stance tends to be more square on because you are dealing with kicks to the leg (if its a full contact style) the power tends to come more from the hips. The Boxer stands side on and relies more on the rotation of the feet and the shoulders for power and distance, allowing the Boxer to punch through the opponent rather than at him/her.
When karate and boxing punches are taught separately, the techniques are not the same. The main difference is going to be the ranges for punches. The boxing cross, for example, is going to stress a weight shift or a drop step followed by a relaxed shoulder twirl to generate the power for the cross. The karate punch is going to stress keeping the elbows in and using the back leg to drive the hip forward. The karate punch is a shorter quicker motion compared to the boxing mechanics, this means two things, one is that the boxing cross will have a good 4-6 inches further range for power, the second is that with the boxing punch you are more likely to break your hand if you hit something really solid. IME. Once the karate punch and boxing punch fundamentals are learned, then it is much easier to see in action how they use the same mechanics and they are the same (except for the range). When in karate, probably the easiest technique to see how the boxing and karate mechanics are the same is with the lunge punch done with a punch first and then letting the leg naturally step forward. So the mechanics of this punch would be left drop step or weight shift, right reverse punch, and then letting the right leg move forward naturally (due to the shoulder twirl). This is a power lunge punch and is different than the standard, step first with right then punch right. In the following video, Mas Oyama can be seen using the shared mechanics of karate and boxing punch (so essentially they are the same as Fish pointed out; however, to get to this point there are fundamentals that need to be developed where karate and boxing punches will seem different). At about 16-20 seconds there is the right punch with the right foot moving forward, the mechanics is where you might say the karate punch and the boxing punch are shared: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDpcaowUp0g"]Mas Oyama Fighting‏ - YouTube[/ame]
re: punching, there is a simple point to take into account: the effectiveness of a punch depends on how you impact the target, not on which "technique" you are using. a punching "technique" will develop fundamentals relative to how you move your own body. when you hit something, you need to take into account the other body's resistance to your punch, and punch according to that. that is where punching methods start becoming equal in application. same with power generation. there is no reason a karate style punch will not work with western boxing style rotation, in fact i've written about the similarities and differences before (i'll dig out the link in a while). the main difference i see is in the shoulder girdle, and that's more a matter of range and strategy, since by raising the shoulder you protect against gloved head punches where a bareknuckle one might slip past, but on the other hand karate relies (or should rely) on using hand control and parries to get close and then pummel from infighting range.
Even Kyokushin doesn't allow punches to the head in competition, whereas head strikes are a boxer's bread and butter. Boxers are mostly better through extensive practice rather than due to a magic style difference PS. I would say that a lifted shoulder helps get more power and a solid link base-target if punching the head of someone the same height or taller than yourself but *shrug* EDIT: Actually I fundamentally disagree with what I wrote - continually practising to certain target drill does produce significant differences in structure that specialise to that region only and may impede the ability to strike elsewhere. Good punch is still a good punch though!
the shoulder girdle should assist the movement, not just be forced into a single direction for everything.
Hate to sound like a broken record, but differences seen might have more to do with training priorities than different mechanics. I think Hapuka was very close to describing these things as a matter of observation. Karate spends more time isolating movements to build structure, this at first often leads to more rigid form which is not as effective in the short run. In my experience, the concentration on structure and isolated movements allows for a few things... one is more the ability to teach the masses, two the ability to strike with less chance of self-injury, three the ability to watch for bad habits such as telegraphing intentions, four the ability to be "strong" when applying technique. On the other hand, boxing starts with basics that involve footwork and relaxation. Full body coordination. In my experience, this method allows for better power in a shorter amount of time because the student is developing full body movement into power starting from day one. The danger, IMHO, with this is that more precautions must be taken as there is a greater chance of self-injury due to the nature of students not realizing how hard they are hitting. Without wraps and gloves, a student might end up breaking their hand on something solid. Techniques such as the overhand right, long ranged hooks, and anything that could hit something hard like the forehead or an elbow are not really any good without hand wraps and gloves (even with wraps and gloves the hand can sometimes be broken). You have to go down the paths a bit in both karate and boxing to find some of this out, IMHO. Again, sorry I'm a broken record but look at the following video I already posted. Look how relaxed Mas Oyama is in his striking, both open hand and closed fist. He knows how to punch, he is karate, but it is relaxed like what you would expect from any other martial art, including boxing. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDpcaowUp0g"]Mas Oyama Fighting‏ - YouTube[/ame] And by relaxed, I specifically mean, not rigid. Mas Oyama has structure but the structure is not rigid but free to move as needed. This is full body movement for power, even if his feet don't move, the power is full body because it isn't rigid. When it comes down to it, maybe the differences between a boxing and karate punch only really comes down to what targets you are striking to. Karate spends a lot of time on targets that can be hit with a closed fist (softer targets) where you should not as likely break your hand on the strike. Open hand strikes are used for harder targets. Boxing, due to the practice of hand wrapping and gloves, might employ closed fist techniques that would be better as an open hand strike when without hand wraps and gloves. IMHO, you got karate structure that is more rigid at first but perhaps primarily to avoid using technique that could cause self injury and you got boxing which is going to teach more quickly developing full body power and movement, but with a higher risk of using techniques that could cause self-injury. In other words, the differences are ones of avoidance of certain techniques rather than differences in the mechanics. Only through experience do the two meet and could be called the same.
But,but,ain't we all supposed to punch thru? Boxers also operate from a shorter and higher stance than most Karateka train in, often with an almost straight front leg.(this will vary according to an individual's own style/tactics)These two factors along with pivoting on the ball of a foot contribute to very rapid weight shifts.Rotation on the ball also enables turning farther into the opposite hip joint enabling as you mentioned, more extension and power. Rotation of feet and upper torso in boxing is initiated by the hips.Power in boxing is totally dependent on the snapping of the hip which (usually) involves a weight shift, with the upper torso "catching up" to the hips as the punching arm flys.In application of course, a shot may already be in flight before the snap,but the snap still creates the power- additional things can be added from shoulders/back,of course. Henry Armstrong-" 'Tain't no secret,I just put my hips into them punches". I think there is some difference in mechanics,or at least how they are utilized from the beginning stages twixt the two methods.Boxers don't spend time learning a structure of a rear hand delivery with a flat rear foot.One just can't normally put out the same amount of force as a boxer that way.I know Karate can pivot too,but most "traditional" schools spend a lot of time in that practice,which may have other benefits but is not conducive to maximum power output.I don't keep up with some things,but years ago there seemed a general consensus that boxers as a whole hit harder than anyone.Maybe it's different now. Anyone know of recent comparitive tests? I know I'm a broken record about his work,but Haislett's "Boxing" has the most excellent description of boxing mechanics I have yet to see in print,and some good fundamental exercises to develop them. Someone a few months ago said there was a free legal download on the net. Always liked his term "slamming the door" .
El Medico, excellent post and description of how a boxer generates punches. I like the slamming door quote and it is one I use myself. I'm sure we have all had a gust of wind slam the car door, or left the front and rear door of the house open, only to hear a door violently slam shut, that is how you punch should feel. It pivots on its hinges and bam.
Slamming the door about the door? I thought it referred to you slamming the door. The mechanics of your body when you slam a door (you are the wind, not the door). The person you punch should feel like they just got the door slammed on them.
Yes, but it should not be surprising that many karateka do not train to strike through due to training for light or no contact. The same principles such as stun or unbalance on contact, match the weapon to the target, soft target -> hard weapons, hard target -> soft weapon, etc. all apply the same for all striking. However, much of what should be basics and fundamentals gets, IMHO, specialized due to the environments where techniques are applied. I'm not saying specialization is all bad, there are a lot of details that specialize methods for environments that are practical, details such as atemi (striking) when on the ground or against a wall, close in striking, pressure point striking, striking under low-light conditions, etc. Some specialization is artifically introduced such as pulling punches (not striking through a target) and dependency on hand wraps and gloves. These "artificial" specializations can become problematic when trying to discuss differences in body-mechanics because we don't know if some of these differences are not actually due to artificial reasons.
Actually, though many karate styles teach a front facing posture to beginners, intermediate and advanced students tend to fight from hanmi (half front facing), basically taking their center off-line just like a boxer does. What you described for the punch is also basic karate technique. You punch through the target, and the feet and shoulders are also used as well as the hips. Most karateka don't look beyond their basic kihon techniques and see beyond the outside, rather it's the principles that really come into play and you'll see they are in fact almost identical.
All of that depends on the footwork really. If you're standing in zenkutsu dachi and execute a reverse punch, it's going to seem as if a rear straight from a boxing stance has more range. Try it out, and you'll see. Now, when you're in your zenkutsu dachi and execute that reverse punch, drop the front knee slightly and you'll see your range has just increased by that subtle weight shift. Keep in mind too that the zenkutsu dachi you typically see is way too deep, as karateka are looking more at form than function in that regards (or in some cases, teach deep stances to strengthen the legs but forget to shorten them up as they progress in their studies). Mas Oyama is a good example though, thanks for posting that video.
I'm thinking the differences are in a trainer. IMOO...Karate seems to be a bit more robotic in the punching department. BUT if you did do the follow through and from the hips it would be the same. Seems like Karate doesn't seem to move into close distance and stay at close distance it is a snap out and back off. Please don't flame me... I think Karate has been formulated for the masses. In boxing it does take a long time to get to be able to bulid up & take the blows. Karate for the masses IMOO is geared toward all people being able to carry out manuvers. If an instructor said to a Karate student, hey, look man.. you are too fat to spar or take hits or work out with the right results it woulnt go over too well. A good instructor/ coach should inform students of these things. I think if you want to understand head punch techniques, start with understanding defense and go to to a boxing school.
The Ikken Hissatsu or "one punch, one kill" philosophy explains a lot about the stylistic differences
