Look at the data... Hello all, There is altogether too much data on the effects of joint strain and injury in young children. Before the age of 14/15 the result of repetitive stress and injury to joints like the wrist can result in damage to the growth plates and corresponding reduction on growth in that joint and in the case of the wrist, the hand does not fully develop. Striking and kicking drills, some soft falling, and general coordination drills might be great for children under 14/15, but any use of hard locking and repetitive joint manipulation with throwing or locking - outside of gravity induced stretching may very well cause permanent injury to the joint and growth plates. And pontificating about being a good instructor of kids, and being attentive has nothing to do with the fact that even minor over strain causes injury. And as for having children needing to learn the "tap rule" - before 14/15 - that seems irresponsible at best.
And yet not so much as ONE link provided by you in your post (yeah, yeah, I know... :google: ) Hi, iron_ox. I have heard this plenty of times about damaging the growth-plates and how it can *ruin a child for life*. I've also had pediatricians as students who saw nothing wrong with how classes for younger children were conducted (very similar to the method described by Moosulmaster, in case you were wondering). Children fall down all the time when playing (at least when playing outdoors, and not playing video games - LOL), and the common reaction to this is to put your hand out in front of you, which means the wrists of these little buggers gets bent back every time they lose balance and fall forward (bruising their little tushies is the result of falling backwards, although thrusting one's hands down to help *cushion* the fall can still be expected to a small degree when falling backwards). Some people (meaning MA instructors) just don't have the patience necessary to teach children, and probably should avoid doing so at all costs. Sorta like people who use those pet leashes on their toddlers when taking them to the mall, rather than just keeping an eye on them like it's been done for millennia.
Ok, here are a few easy ones for you. If you have any pediatricians that are students that see persons under 14/15 doing HAPKIDO and not having an issues, I would question them further. http://www.niams.nih.gov/Health_Info/Growth_Plate_Injuries/growth_plate_injuries_ff.asp http://www.sportssafety.org/articles/kids-overuse-injuries/ This has NOTHING to do with patience. It has to do with whether HAPKIDO techniques are appropriate for children under 14/15. The answer is no. That does not mean that children cannot learn some practical, fun, and productive martial arts, but we are talking about HAPKIDO...now, if someone wants to call a random collection of stuff Hapkido, it is all too common in this country. Yes, children fall all the time - but we are talking about a repetitive stress injury caused by martial arts training - this is clearly proven in lots and lots of literature - and just to trump you, I'm married to an MD - and have had these exact discussions in lots of round tables over the years with numerous others. And although I don't know if I implied that a child would be "ruined for life", growth plate injuries do result in long term damage.
Sorry, I don't play bridge so you can "trump" me all day long and I won't give a rat's ass. But seriously, citing one doctor's opinion means very little since you can often find five others which will disagree with their assessment/prognosis. And according to the literature you provided, not even teenagers should practice HKD (growth plates are still insufficiently developed until much older). Also, no MA training whatsoever should be partaken in by youngsters as the "repetitive" kicking which is often involved could easily lead to overuse symptoms (sheesh!). Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating that kids should do dangerous activities, but aside from covering them with bubble-wrap you're not gonna prevent them getting the occasional *boo-boo* every once in awhile. And I'm not pronouncing my love for McDojoism, but most of the HKD-based kiddie classes I've seen were much shorter than the classes geared for adults (mainly because keeping children focused for prolonged periods of time is unrealistic, but it does prevent them from spending TOO MUCH time with their MA practice). Let's face it, between school, homework, sports, and other activities which most kids do, doing a few joint-locks throughout the week isn't very likely to lead to the sort of overtraining injuries you have indicated. As I understand it, iron_ox, you teach authentically traditional HKD, and therefore I suspect that most of the time during one of your classes is spent on practicing the joint-locks. However myself, as well as the OP and Moosulmaster, practice a variation infused with elaborate kicking (one of the early *innovations* added to HKD) as well as forms/patterns, aka: hyeong 형 (something relegated to fewer HKD styles). In such a KMA system as this, even LESS class-time can be devoted to practicing the joint-locks, which further prohibits the possibility for overtraining by children. And one last thing I'd like to mention in defending my POV, is that many adults don't embrace the true warrior spirit when it comes to MA training, and so with HKD they tend to wimp-out when it comes to letting their practice partner really *crank* on the joint-lock. Considering the very nature of children, I'd imagine this ratio to be even greater with kids, and I can testify to seeing many children doing their breakfalls earlier than I would do it, as a means of not having to endure any pain whatsoever (besides, flipping through the air is FUN!). All of this points to growth-plate injuries as being much less likely to occur than you have painted the picture. But I do appreciate your passion to forewarn people of all the dangers involved.
First of all I have to say that I agree that not all Hapkido techniques should be taught to children. On the other hand I think that your blanket statement that children should not learn Hapkido is near ridiculous and unfortunately quite common in today's knee jerk reaction society. Looking at the first link. What causes growth plate injuries? A sudden accident or children who practice for long hours doing the same repetitive motion. As was alluded to above, if a child attends two 30-45 minute Hapkido classes a week, how many of those 60-90 minutes would that child spend repeating the same movement over and over again? Compare this to the examples used in your link of a gymnast spending "hours" on the uneven bars and long distance runners. Atheltes who will be repeating the same motion for hours. Let's look at the second link. Overuse injuries are largely seen in children as a result of sports specialisation in young athletes and performing repetitive coaching drills. What is sports specialisation? "Athletes limiting their athletic participation to one sport which is practiced, trained for, and competed in throughout the year (Hill, 1987)". How many children who attend a martial arts class will have that as their only form of athletic participation? What can be done to offset this risk? According to the article, instruction via qualified personel and ensuring basic strength in the children being coached. The solution is not complete avoidance. Could you see a solution where children are taught the basic principles of Hapkido, kicking, striking, breakfalling, breathing, forms (if you teach any), self defense awareness and some prevalent joint locks to form a children's curriculum? Then once you feel they are physically mature enough, you can introduce the remainder of your adult curriculum to their learning.
Instead of talking about how or why folks don’t teach kids hapkido, why not discuss how hapkido is taught to kids in our dojangs. I will offer the first bit of info: I have found that children LOVE Nak bub. If I start them early in life I find that they are much more likely to have amazing falling skills.
Yeah. We always liked knife motion. As my friend Caleb used to call it, "Stabby stabby pokey pokey" motion :hat: Oh the memories of kids class ... I used to come up with different names to help other kids (and myself) remember parts of motions. I remember during one motion at one part I said you flipped two pancakes, then "strike, strike, slice the lemon. strike, strike, chop the carrot" and then later on in the motion you opened and closed a refrigerator door . I don't know if certain instructors would consider that "disrespect to the art" or whatever, but it sure as heck helped us remember the motions. I remember when we were learning that motion in particular you could almost hear a couple kids whispering "strike, strike, slice the lemon. strike, strike chop the carrot."
i am in a very small hapkido class, like three adults small. there are two young girls that come too. they are probably 8 or 9. they learn the same thing we do most of the time. since the class is so small, the instructor teaches the grownups the techniques and then works one on one with the children. as a fellow student, supervision is paramount for their safety. tonight we were practicing an elbow break. i noticed one of the girls was putting too much pressure on the joint of her sister and stepped in. kinda like a village raising the kid ya know. they are doing well and catching on just fine. it depends on the child as well.
I transferred to another hapkido school after the instructor in the first school continually cranked my nine-year-old's wrists. This after I explicitly expressed my concerns about joint locking children, prior to joining his dojang. He assured me he would first train my son to strengthen his wrists before engaging in locks. In the time being he said he would take a gentle approach as he does with the other children. There are two little girls in the class who seem to do well. However, my son who is nine years old is also 5 feet 3 inches. Although I constantly remind the instructor and others in the class (adults and children train together) they seemed to forget and take him down hard. He complained of sore wrists for about a month. I removed both of us and joined another HKD dojang, which prohibits all joint locking exercises until the age of twelve. I am so thankful we had that option.
I think that due to your son's height, people tend to forget that he's only 9. It's understandable, but the instructor should have been on it. I am glad you found a place where it's safer for your son.
I want to applaud the vigilance of parents who express concerns AND vote with their feet when their concerns aren't heard. I know that must sound strange coming from me, given my personal views on the nature of the Hapkido arts. However, if people are going to really, really, try to teach Hapkido to children (< 13y/o) then by Gawd, that teacher better be at the top of his "teaching game". There are only about a hundred things that could go wrong trying to teach kids an art like Hapkido, and it should be everybody's business to make sure that nothing does. IMHO. Best Wishes, Bruce
I just wanted to say I really appreciate this thread. I'm currently taking a family friendly form of TKD with my whole family. My kids are 9 & 12 and I've been seriously thinking about Hapkido. Ultimately, I'll need to go to the Hapkido club close to me (which I've also read on this forum has a good rep) and see it for myself. But I'm getting the feeling that I should wait until my oldest is around 14 before he and I split from TKD and go give it a try.
I teach Hapkido to adults. I would teach teens if any of the locals ever expressed an interest. The only child I teach is my seven yearl old son but we are proceeding very slowly and he's only allowed to demonstrate his Hapkido on me. Like others here I worry about his joints. I know my teacher teaches TKD to the kids and occasionally clarifies some of the TKD moves with some of his Hapkido stuff. When they get a certain size he transitions them to Hapkido. Thus far he's had great success. I just want to express my respect to those of you who teach kids, it's a talent I envy.
Thinking perhaps it might be encouraging for you to go back and read my previous posts in this thread. That way I won't bore everyone by repeating myself. I will say that there are some TREMENDOUS hapkido teachers out there that teach children. It's just that teaching kids is notfor everyone.
First just so everyone understands, I'm looking at a few options to either supplement or replace our TKD. So I'm looking at Hapkido, boxing, and kickboxing. There is a Hapkido school very close to us with a good rep. Don't worry I read every single post in this thread. At this point, this thread leads me to believe that if I go with Hapkido, that I should wait.
