Thomas, You requested some information about some teachers, mine among them. Here are a few links to information about Master Hwang In-Shik. (He uses "master" and laughed when he read the references to him as being "Supreme Grandmaster". He said to me "You know, there really is no such thing!") http://www.worldhapkido.com/hwangsem.htm http://www.eaglehapkido.com http://www.bootmasters.btinternet.co.uk/text/whang.htm Another poster placed this list on another thread. I believe that it came from Peter Sand's Hapkido family tree from a section of Hapkido-net.com which he closed down because there was too much arguing over who or who was not legitimate. These are all, as I understand it, fairly high ranked individuals: Choi Yong Shul's senior students: Chang, Chin-Il Chang, Young-Shil Choi, Bok-Yeul Han, Bong-Soo Hwang, In-Shik Im, Hyun-Soo Kim, Chong S. Kim, Jung-Soo Kim, Jung-Yoon Kim, Moo-Hong Kim, Yun-Sang Lee, Jung-Nam Lee, Kun-He Moon, Ji-Kang Myung, Kwang-Sik Park, Jung-Hwan Park, Nam-Sun Rim, Jong-Bae Seo, In-Sun Son, Yu-Un Song, Young-Ki Suh, Bok-Su Suh, In-Hyuk Te, Chung-Ke Won, Kwang-Wha Ji Han Jae's senior students(Sung Moo Kwan): Choi, Sea-Oh Han, Bong-Soo Hwang, Duk-Kyu Kang, Doo-Sik Kim, Jin-Pal Kim, Myung-Yong Kim, Sou-Bong Like Mr. Sand, I won't argue who should be included who is not nor who is included who should not be. (Or who should be under Choi and who should be under Ji since many teachers trained under both men.) Master Hwang contunues to live and train at the Eagle Hapkido Headquarters in Toronto. He is in the dojang everyday when he is not giving a seminar and he contunues to be able to hit harder and harder. I lived and and trained in Korea and Japan he is the greatest teacher/practitioner that I have ever met. That's enough for me, regardless of dan. Master Hwang, himself, has always spoken with great respect for the skills possessed by Master Hwang Duk Kyu.
Where do I get what from? We are talking specifically about the term "Do-ju", which as far as I know, does not exist except under *western* martial art circles. Hell...look even in the most comprehensive Korean dictionary out there, and you will not find the term. If it is accepted under Korean MA circles these days, then it is because of it being common usage in the west. Obviously, a group of 7th Dans aren't exactly going to start promoting anyone above them unless the person they promote is their senior... Sorry...please don't get rankled...I'm not placing any value judgement on the issue of Dan ranks (I don't care either way). I'm trying to give some context and history as I've come to know. Try not to think of this statically...historically in korean MAs, it was simply white or black. Just like in trades (apprentice, journeyman, master). But for Korean MAs, there were no true MA schools, and no historical precedence or hierarchy. So in the beginning, Dan ranks were awarded by essentially by acclamation (by the board of peers and students). What do you think was going on in the early days of HKD anyway? Who was promoting whom? of course there is a chance of abuse...knowingly or unknowningly. I'm just saying this is the attitude of promotion. Again...no value judgement.
To All, In my own opinion there is only one person that should have ever held the title of 10th Dan, and that's Choi and no one but him. However theoretically anyone who starts their own style, or art could consider themselves a 10th Dan. I just don't agree with in terms of talking about Choi's art. It's just ike our GM. He started his own IHF, so really he could call himself a 10th Dan, but he doesen't. He said "the only person that deserves that title is Choi". Just my 2 cents.
Greetings I also think it's good to talk about this stuff, it's educates many people about the goings on behind the sceens so to speak. But, You can never please everyone all the time.
Greetings, I'm also NOT putting down anyones abilities here in fact all the people Thomas mentioned in the begining are known to be world class masters. I've have used one or two just for illustration purposes only. So far no one has shown that the 10th dan actually exists and more importantly how anyone gets that ranks other than from a board of directors or self appointment. I feel strongly that there's NO BASIS or PRECEDENT in KMA for that to happen, but todays MA era everything is up for grabs and all the politically correct minded folks or the ignorant masses just follow along and get upset the question is even raised. What nerve of some people for using thier mind.
MJR: Exactly what I was looking for! Thanks for such a nice post. Okay, I appreciate the discussion of 10th dan and "do ju" and do think it has merit in this thread, afterall we are trying to discuss "Hapkido 10th dans", so any further information on that would be good as well. Perhaps I should have said: What I would like to see is information, links, and personal experiences discussed with heads of Hapkido associations/federations/etc.... regardless of whether they are 4-10th dan or not. Mainly I'd like to see some respect and discussion of the "movers and shakers" of our art. Come on guys, spill the beans!
I thought we should bring this back so we could share stories as per Thomas request. Anyone? I all ready wrote mine, I thought this was a thread that would be interesting to share experiences on. Please.
Greetings, Your right it's a good topic. For me studying under a person like Ji Han Jae has increased my knowledge and understanding of the Art of HKD dramatically. Althought I have many years expirience under another great master he did'nt have the knowledge of the Founder of HKD in quite the same way. Technique wise, I already knew over 90% of the same techniques Doju Ji was teaching but he was able to tweak some of my movements and futher refine my skill. There's no substitute for learning from the person who's the real bottom line in HKD and that needs to be expirienced to see and feel the difference.
Doju and 10th dan are not the same. The head of a style is the doju. When the doju dies, somebody else takes it over. The late GM Myung Jae Nam from the IHF was doju (founder of hankido) and kuksa (nations master). And when your refer to somebody else, you should use the -nim suffix. So kuksanim Myung Jae Nam. Now his son is the new dojunim. I know that kuksanim Myung Jae Nam issued 10 dan certificates to both his brother (Myung Jae Ok) and to Ji Han Jae. And probably (but I am not sure) to Hoi In Hwan.
Greetings Doju and Soke are'nt the same I believe? Soke is Head of Family Doju is Founder Maybe in some way they can be considered the same, but the Head of Family can be any person who inherates the system and need not be the systems creator.
Soke, sounds Japanese to me In Korean it would probably be the same. Almost everybody refers to eachother in terms of familymembers. (Hyung, Nuna, Onni, Oppa, etc. etc.)
In my opinion ranks after 6th and/or 7th become more about politics than they are about the physical art (especially in TKD where all of the techniques have been taught by 4th Dan). Don't misread I still believe that the people that get promoted to 10th Dan are or should be the top of the line as far as executing the art. However people more often get promoted to the higher ranks for the things that they do to spread the art: giving seminars, holding tournaments, opening schools, accepting postitions in the association/federation, etc. American HKD, I'm not sure if I understand your logic on this matter in earlier posts. Granted I do not have the experience that you have, and I'm not in your position. That said, are you saying that the only person that can promote people to the highest rank in that art is the founder of that art? If so what happens when the founder dies? May he/she promote someone to a high enough position to be able to promote everyone else? If not it would seem like the art would digress when everyone that was 10th dan died (heaven forbid), so then no one could be promoted to 9th dan, then they die, and no one could be promoted to 8th and so on. It's the chicken and the egg. For that reason it is my contention that the higher ranks are more about politics (not in a bad sense) than anything else. And, I think that's the way it should be. If someone is progressing the art, educating people about it to a high degree, making Hapkido look good then they should be promoted to a high position. American HKD, I am really interested in your point of view since you have trained with Do Ju Ji.
Greetings What I'm saying is traditionally and historically someone needs to be a least one dan higher to promote, meaning an 8th can promote only to a 7th etc. The founder can appoint a successor in which case the successor is above rank and becomes "head of the system". If Doju Ji never appoints a succesor the most anyone can ever be is a 8th dan promoted by a 9th. Many break off associations in mordern times like the KHF or WHF, have board of masters and jointly they appoint one to 9th or 10th dan, but that's modern because they broke the tradition of Founder to the next head of family. So thier "boards" replaced the traditonal successor of the system. Why because everyone wants to be in charge and they can democractically elect someone rather then have to listen to one person. Modern MA I almost forgot high dan ranks are an honor but don't mean much technically after 5th dan which traditionally very high rank. 6,7,8,9 all honorary and for more dedication, time in a system, promoting, teaching, etc.
Is this such a bad thing? I understand what you're saying, but with the controversy over who founded Hapkido and the several organizations. If people don't get along they're going to do it their own way. As long as they can back up their rank with knowledge, character, ethics, and their history then no one should have a problem with it. Just curious, did GM Choi name a successor?
Greetings I wasn't talking about who started what, only the wat promotions work. Choi did name a succesor I can't remember his name but he's a Korean man who lives in New York City and is inactive in Hapkido and quite reclusive from my understanding. Choi's system is not the same system Ji Han Jae developed, it's more like a basic Jujutsu system but we all share most of the same basics.
If Ji Han Jae developed his own system, why did he accept/ask for/need a 10th dan from a federation that does something completely else?
Greetings If your speaking of the KHF/KHA/Kido Hae, they all practice Ji's style of HKD style pre Sin Moo and Doju Ji was the Master of all the seniors including Myung Jae Nam, Hwang Sik Myung, Kim Jin Pal, Oh Se Lim, Hwang In Sik, Kim Jae Nam, on and on and on. So what's your point he was honored by the federations he started and the masters he taught? I think it's great!
Ji Han Jae got his 10th dan from the IHF in the early 80's. When GM Myung Jae Nam had long left the 'old' hapkido behind him. Isn't it strange that you accept a rank from one of your students anyway? If I would let my students promote me these days, everybody would say that it is a strange thing to do. Actually a lot of the McDojang 'masters' we so often mock on forums like this, get their high degrees that way.
Klassb, I believe what Stuart was saying is that the 10th Dan that was given to Ji by Myung was basically an honorary rank. It has nothing to do with Ji knowing Myung's material. Atleast that's my belief.
Greetings I think you don't reall understand or are intentionally being difficult? Of course Doju doesn't need a rank from any of his students, that goes without saying. Many people get honorary Doctorate degrees from a college and have never learned anything. People repect thier seniors or masters and give them a 10th from thier Association as a show of respect. That's All!
