so, i'm interested in what people have to say about hangetsu dachi one year after the thread was last discussed. has anyone changed their opinion? on my part, while i never learned hangetsu and thus don't do it, i'm thinking that hangetsu dachi could be done similarly to some forms of naifanchin-dachi (as performed in ****o-ryu with the feet pointing in) as a way of training to open and close the hip joints. for reference, this is what i mean by opening and closing the hip joints: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8KkBTQfgvk"]YouTube- naihanchihip.mp4[/ame] (excuse the hair, i did it on the fly while chatting with knight errant ) also, i always liked kawasoe sensei's rendition of hangetsu: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKfafjEpCGA"]YouTube- Hangetsu Kawazoe Sensei[/ame] in fact, i think it's the only rendition of hangetsu i like from the few i've seen
Re-read the thread and can safely say my opinion is still the same. I would add a point to the discussion between you and JWT in the last couple of posts about kibadachi/shikodachi. As JWT pointed out, its much easier to drop into shikodachi. There used to be no such thing as kibadachi in karate once upon a time. It was a parallel naihanchi-dachi, not much more than shoulder width. And this is how I think it should be. If you want to drop deep, use shikodachi - I can see the sense in that. I can't see any sense or logic in kibadachi. I don't if anyone can explain the point to me? (without going on about 'leg strengthening'). I couldn't hear any sound on your youtube vid so I wasn't sure exactly what point you were making. But I do think the slight inner circular stance used in ****o/Wado Naihanchi is a much more useful stance than Hangutsu-dachi, allowing you to easily rotate your hip. Mike
so did i. in fact it's common sense, as shiko dachi IS a squat (sumo squat, in fact). "Kenwa Mabuni, who was one of Itosu's students had in his employ a servant, one Morihiro Matayoshi. It is said that Matayoshi taught Mabuni a kata which he called Kiba-Dachi-no-Kata, it is not known where Matayoshi gained his knowledge of this kata, but although it was a version of Naihanchi it was not the Naihanchi that Itosu was teaching. Mabuni demonstrated this kata to Itosu only to have the master confirm to him that this was the original version of Naihanchi that he had learned from his master, "Bushi" Matsumura (1809-1901), and that he'd modified Matsumura's version of Naihanchi to suit his own ideas." "Chosin Chibana said that Itosu originally learned 'Naihanchi' from a Chinese living in Tomari, and evidence that Itosu restructured 'Naihanchi' is given in an anecdote told by Kenwa Mabuni: "One of my servants Morihiro Matayoshi once taught me kiba-dachi-no kata. It was different from the kata I learned from Itosu Sensei, so one day I showed him the kata that Matayoshi had taught me. He said that was the original form of the kata; he had studied and improved it following his own research."" from here and here, respectively. matsubayashi-tyu uses a kiba-type stance too. this is logical considering that horse stance and it's variants exist and are widely used in the chinese martial arts. this includes what would eventually be called shiko dachi, which is used (or at least there's a very similar "outside horse stance", as i've heard it called), for example, in chen tai chi, choy lay fut and baji quan, along with the standard parallel ma pu/ma bu/sei ping ma. there's also the possibility that some chinese styles consider the two stances to be one and the same. we'd need some proper CMA people to confirm this, i guess. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saATlZrByK8&feature=related"]YouTube- Naihanchi shodan[/ame] why would i want to drop deep? (in fact i tend to detest it). kiba and shiko both provide sideways force (the ideal vectors going from parallel to your coronal plane to about 45 or 50 degrees in front of you), kiba providing better rotational torque and shiko better sideways force and easier irimi. the video has no sound, don't worry. my point was, as i said in my post, that you can use naifainchin dachi to train your hip joints as opposed to moving the whole hip area, and that hangetsu dachi could be used for the same purpose. as an aside, a note about the q-angle: the q-angle only changes when you de-align the knee from the foot. this can happen if you don't have flexible hip joints, or it might be done on purpose (compare the picture of kagawa's stance with kawasoe's stance in the video i posted). as far as i'm concerned, your knee should only travel in the direction your foot is pointing in. any other direction means you're putting torque on your ankle or knee and are going to hurt one of them. this applies to ALL stances. an inside tension stance is just one where your FOOT is angled in, so you have inside tension because your knee naturally falls in. outside tension stances have outside tension because you need to keep that alignment to prevent your own weight from hurting your joints, and if you keep your leg relaxed, is actually a natural consequence of keeping your foot flat on the ground.
Indeed! What amazes me is that there are plenty of people who will argue til they're blue in the face that its just as easy to drop into kibadachi as it is shikodachi. I may have confused the issue by talking about Naihanchi-dachi. My understanding is that the old way of doing Naihanchi was in a parallel stance. So kibadachi is naihanchi-dachi, but one that never gets much wider than shoulder width. Matsumura's Naihanchi used a parallel stance. My own belief (I can't prove it but comparison of different styles in the same lineage points to this conclusion) is that the parallel stance was passed down through Itosu to Funakoshi. Through Funakoshi the parallel stance was passed to the Shotokan and got enlarged 'somewhat'. Bizarrely Funakoshi seems to have flirted with doing kata in shikodachi in the 1920s. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNrslr9LWIw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNrslr9LWIw[/ame] This copy is even lower quality than the original clip I saw of this some years ago, so its difficult to tell but I'm pretty sure he's doing a toe-out stance. But he clearly changed it back to parallel in time for the Tekki kata to be set in stone. My impression is that the toe-in version found in Wado came about as a result of Ohtsuka learning the parallel version from Funakoshi and changing it to toe-in for reasons of his own (presumably to 'sanchin'-ise it in the same way the Shotokan did to Seisan). But then I wasn't aware that ****o Ryu did a toe-in version. Presumably one influenced the other, but which way round? Any thoughts? I don't really feel qualified to comment on the history of Chinese styles in this regard. What I regard as deep you may not. But anyway I typically use a 'deep' shikodachi to throw/lever the assailant over my thigh. I need to drop into a deep(ish) stance so that my centre is lower than the assailant's and I can make contact with the correct part of my leg. The toe-in version opening and closing the hip? OK yes, I see your point. However, looking at your vid, I note that as you close one hip, the same knee moves out, putting a degree of torque on that whole leg. Which is - I think - what it should do. But if I try to do that in a full on hangetsu-dachi it doesn't feel good - it feels like there's too much torque is applied and its happening at the knee rather than distributed through the leg. Reduce the exaggeration of the stance and the problem goes away. That's probably why Kawasoe's version looks better, its just not as exaggerated. A good rule of thumb I think. 2 important points I repeat in teaching: a) the knee should be above the foot (extending no further than the toes), b) the knee and the foot should point in the same direction. There are exceptions of course, the rear leg in zenkutsudachi being an obvious one. Inner circular stances (ie. toe-in) are another exception, but they have to be kept relatively small to avoid undue strain on the cruciate and/or collateral knee ligaments. Mike
OK word from the man who knows (not me of course) There is a precept "Never take the initiative in karate" This is complemented with "never assume a posture in karate." never take the intiative represents the theoretical aspect that one is CONSTANTLY prepared. What no stance in karate means is that you should never force your body into a tight position in responce to your opponet's movement. Rather you should be relaxed and alert to receive any attack from any direction. However although there is no stance in the body the kokoro kamae (attitude of mind) is ALWAYS ALERT. It is of the utmost importance to be constantly ready in your mind but never assume a posture of defence. You "flow" constantly between jodan gedan and chudan You must constantly be prepared in ALL directions. I wrote this down after a conversation with Chiba shihan who cross trained with Enoida shihan he was describing ENOIDA shihan of shotokan's attitude to Dachi (stances). Chiba shihan of aikido tended to use the word Kamae (attitude) of the body rather than stance. The basic principles being to make the kokoro kamae and katachi kamae (mind and body attitudes) as one with the technique.The principle being that with the mind body and technique applied as one the movement shall be NATURAL passing through what many may think of as stances but never "stopping" in a stance. Watching either of these two great masters train it is clear what is ment by no stances in budo. This principle is true of all Japanese martial arts. I have a far more detailed collection of notes I took..however lacking them at the moment I have written what I remember. regards koyo Spot the stance..indeed spot the art. Enoida shihan.
I don't think that's contrary to the discussion in hand is it? I would take it to mean that you shouldn't take up a fixed posture. But stances in combat shouldn't be fixed, they should be transitional. You put your feet/knees/hips where they need to be to achieve a particular end then move on immediately (no need to pause to pose for a photo). Training stances in kata - particularly slow kata such as Sanchin - is just that: training, not combat. Training prepares you for combat, that doesn't necessarily mean that combat should look like kata. Mike
"stick the pelvis back a bit..."--this reads as if you let your posterior protrude a bit?Is that what you meant?Just wondering.Oft seen this in Karate. If that's what you meant,this basically never applies in CMA horses-neigh,neigh-you keep your lower back flat and your pelvis tucked/dropped regardless of depth. Just wasn't sure if you were speaking strictly of Shotokan here or if that was a blanket statement regarding horses in general.Not wishing to lead to thread digression.
I missed this thread last time, but really enjoyed re-reading it and seeing the different opinions. Exactly! Especially when you compare Choki Motobu's stance to the modern day equivalent, you can see his is far more practical. Everyone nowadays though thinks kiba dachi is the bee's knees. In reference to the prior mentions of Sanchin, I've noticed just from training in Goju Ryu and going to Kyokushin that they perform Sanchin dachi very differently. Dare I say, incorrectly on the Kyokushin side. I've seen it performed this way in other karate styles as well, and my knees get irritated just looking at it. Compared to the Goju Sanchin dachi, you can see a huge difference. I can also say that I've noticed more power generation through the Goju stance than the other more popular version of Sanchin simply due to the fact that now you can use that rear foot more like it's a Zenkutsu dachi to drive your punch straight towards your target, rather than your rear foot being at an angle and causing that power leak if you're trying to attack a target directly in front of you. Having never trained in Hangetsu Dachi myself, all I can say by looking at it is it looks biomechanically incorrect as there's too much pressure on the knees. I certainly wouldn't want to do it for long periods of time, especially since (though relatively pain free now) I've had knee problems in the past.
no, what i mean is that as you spread your feet (if you keep them perfectly parallel, which is how it's stressed in shotokan), your hip can't be tucked in as much as when your stance is narrower. it's physically impossible (ask van zandt about his hip replacement ) @Kuma: ye gods, man, that kiba dachi pic is atrocious (a google search shows it's from a blog post about how NOT to do kiba). i counter with these by nakayama and kagawa: with regards to the knees-in sanchin, notice that every single example of it also has the weight uncentered (usually towards the back leg, and with a noticeable sideways lean on the torso). this happens because they don't tuck the pelvis in by contracting the glutes (which counteracts the inside tension). people get too hung up on "keeping the knees pressed" and forget to mind the rest of their body (although to be fair, there was a time when i treated sanchin as outside tension ). re:hangetsu dachi: again, i've never learned it, so i can't make a fully informed comment, but as i understand it, it CAN be done without compromising knee integrity (now, whether orthodox ultra-trad shotokan people would even consider it, that's a whole new discussion, and the answer is most likely no). I'll watch a couple of hangetsu videos and try to put together a crude imitation of the opening sequence, then come back and report my findings.
ok, i've figured out one thing: my adductors are WEAK tried out three or four different ways to do it, none caused me knee pain, but they sure pulled the hamstrings, adductors and sartorius. i suspect this is again down to the "twist your leg from the hip joint, not from the ankle" thingy i mentioned. the key is simultaneous contraction of the glutes and adductors. i settled for stepping "normally" (trying to keep the feet parallel, more or less), then focusing the movement like in sanchin, rolling the hips, contracting the abdomen, and pushing both heels out (keeping the knees aligned). here's the vid: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqCG9imKLUc"]YouTube- hangetsu experiment[/ame] any opinions?
Good strong stances are the basis of all Karate techniques for it's suppose to tell you the correct position of the karateka's center of gravity and thus ensure correct distribution/projection of bodyweight. You use your entire body to obtain maximum power and speed into your strikes. The Kiba-Dachi (Horse-riding stance) if done properly shouldn't hurt the knees. This is performed with hips positioned centrally, parallel feet pointing forwards and the heels in line. When you bend the knees, push them outwards and let the body sink down into a sitting position. Make sure that your back is straight.
Even compared to Motobu though they're still wider than he used. Motobu was a Naihanchi fanatic. It seems once stances became "Japanized" they got deeper than the original Okinawan stances.
um, yeah? that's shotokan for you. deep stances. before anyone says anything, i will personally vouch for shotokan's use of deep stances as physical training. they're the only reason i can move and kick the way i do, and i only did shotokan for two years. they have an intended purpose, which is NOT application, and as far as that purpose is concerned, they work.
I must repectfully disagree on the physical impossibility seeing as how I can retain the same pelvic positioning,whether thru a relaxed dropping of the pelvis or a deliberate forceful pulling forward tuck.I just executed both starting from a high horse then shifting feet waaay out and dropping into a trademark feet parallel and thighs parallel to ground Hung Gar horse and staying there a bit.As far as I know I'm no genetic freak,and neither were my Hung students.I can still do this and I rarely do even my Hung forms these days let alone sitting in horses.But as the Egyptians used to say, " Sadat's the way we do it!" For excrutiatingly long periods. Ancient Chinese secrets,I guess.:hat: Again,I don't wish to derail what is a very interesting technical disussion not related to this particular subject but I wanted to answer re: the impossibilty statement.
It certainly looks better than the original exaggerated picture I posted. The q-angle on your lead leg looks better and I think that makes a world of difference. The torsion on the lead leg looks about right and not likely to cause problems in itself. However, if you did already have knee problems I think this stance would potentially exacerbate them (whether it might cause problems is another question) largely due to the bodyweight pressing down laterally through the knee - something which is mediated in a taller stance where the thigh is more vertical. So the question is, does this stance teach anything you can't get from a decent sanchin stance? Mike
no, but it's certainly easier that teaching shotokan-ka how to do sanchin properly (afaik, don't you learn hangetsu before unsu anyway?). as i said though, it's very demanding on the adductors (much more so tan sanchin, at least for me), so i think it might be good as an occasional complement to sanchin (say, once a month?), and might improve sanchin posture a little (or it might not. this shall require experimentation).
No idea I'm afraid. Although if a shotokan-ka came to my dojo I'd attempt to teach them sanchin properly - whether they like it or not! Well once a month shouldn't cause knee problems at least. I think I'd rather do regular adduction exercises in the gym myself though. Mike
working a muscle's strength is one thing, working it in the specific way you require for martial arts purposes is another. hangetsu dachi done properly does the latter, whereas isolation exercises do the former (which then aids with the latter, of course). different tools for complimentary purposes. in this respect, hangetsu-dachi has a similar basic posture as sanchin, but in a way that provides resistance in order to do it correctly. if you can do a good hangetsu, doing sanchin should be relatively easier to manage (if doing the jump from shoto, you'll have to shorten all stances anyway; the catch is being good at advanced shoto first ) as a side note, the not-quite-hangetsu i tried on my vid made absolutely no torque on my knees. i repeat once more: knee problems happen if you de-align your knee. if the one training misaligns his knees, it's a problem with him, not with the stance or system he trains.
I'm new to this thread, have only just found it in fact, but have read through it and only one thing gets to me, and it's something me and fish have talked about before, but want to clear it up. Sanchin kata: It's the basis of the Goju-Ryu curriculum and makes our style known for what it is, powerful. While the slow techniques may not develop explosiveness as well as other methods, it does develop power, which is something different. The type of power is what makes a punch penetrate a target, makes a block more offensive, conditions the body for taking a hit and generally develops the 'Go' in Goju. It's not meant as an exercise just to watch your fist go slowly out and make sure it's following the right path, it really is meant to be done with full body tension and hard, but not restricted, breathing. If the former way, with making sure your punches are following a good line, is how you practice it fish, that's fine, I have no issue, but it's not the way it was developed to be practiced and Shotofan wasn't so far off. Other styles practice Sanchin, I'm aware of this, but both the more japanese and chinese versions are focused on breathing, just with the style of it differing, while the japanese is generally more pointed towards the hardness (Go) of the kata as well. Just wanted to set straight that it isn't just a slow motion kata, I hope I don't sound too forthright in doing so.
which was not what we were talking about, funnily enough. bold statement assuming that i practice it just to watch my fist going in a good straight line, btw. i don't.
