There are numerous Hakka Tong Long MA systems - styles ... I have formally trained in 3 Hakka Tong Long styles, Kwangsi Jook Lum Gee Tong Long, Chu Gar, and Lee Wing Sing Tong Long. At first glance, the 3 styles noted above are markedly dissimilar. However, upon delving more deeply into the study of these systems ... it becomes obvious that they share many common trait - attributes. More than anything, it is the methodology employed rather than the outcomes experienced that most differ. By way of brief example, the root - body shape & power production links are either very similar or the same. Some point to the lead foot angling in or pointing more directly forward as being an important distinction ... IMO - IME, this is not at all true. Lead foot position speaks more to the overall length of the arc employed. This distinction is important only very early on ... in response to diligent, proper, daily practice & training the importance quickly falls away. Once the arcs are firmly entrained into the prime movers ... the most powerful muscle groups found in the Human Condition ... the grounded termination point is of no importance whatsoever. More of a stylistic imprint than any thing really substantive in nature. Of the 3 Hakka Tong Long styles I have trained in over the years, Kwangsi Jook Lum is far and away the most sublime. It has a level of refinement not found in the other 2 systems. I don't think this refinement necessarily translates as "superior" for several reasons. First and foremost, the nature of unrestricted real World fighting very rarely presents an opportunity for extreme refinement to become manifest. Usually, the fight is determined by the (grammatically incorrect) old saying "He who gets there the first-est with the most-est ... wins." IMO, the LWS Hakka Tong Long hand is essentially a variation of "Old Frame" Chu Gar. The emphasis on seizing hand, controlling the upper torso of the opponent by imparting rotational force(s) through the shoulder plane, the pronounced Finger Fan, and the primary delivery platform of initiating strikes from just inside an area defined by the outer edge of the shoulder(s) marks it as such. Contrary to the public consumption hype, each of the 3 Hakka Tong Long systems has 1 and only 1 Set. Sifu w/in the last 50 years or so have added to the catalogs ... but the true essence of the hand is still to be found in a single Set. For Kwangsi Jook Lum Gee Tong Long Pai it is 3 Steps Forward, for the Old Frame Chu Gar system I hold it is Buddha Hand, and for the LWS hand it is a Set that roughly translates as 13 Roads. I find the pared down Sets to be a common marker of Hakka MA systems. For those familiar with the history of the Hakka this tends to make sense. The clean, uncluttered Sets ... a series of linked repeating cycles ... speaks to the intent of the systems ... real World combat ... nothing more and nothing less. EDIT: Here are some links in case anyone wants to take a look at a few examples - Lee Wing Sing: http://www.chinesefistology.com/gallery.html http://www.freewebs.com/jook_lum/index.htm Various & a Forum you might want to join. Kwangsi Jook Lum as held by GM Poo Yee: http://www.kung-fu.co.il/english/videos.asp Chow Gar ... expanded Chu Gar of the late GM Ip Shui. This is Nish's web page ... good guy and very dedicated to his chosen art form: http://www.tonglong.co.uk/ At least 2 of the above have video clips as well. If you think you see some common traits with Lung Ying and/or Bak Mei ... you are correct.
OMG. Somebody actually explained the details of the different branches of Southern Praying Mantis. Right on man!!! I really enjoyed this. My Sifu actually studied Chow Gar with Ip Sui for 4 years before switching to Choy Lay Fut under master Lee Koon Hung. He still shows us some simple SPM stuff here n there. Do you know anything about Iron Ox? Thanks. Oh yeah, just thought you might want to know this. Other notable SPM guys here are ThaiMantis (he does SPM and Muay Thai) as well as David. I usually see them around once in a while. Peace
My respects and regards to your Sifu ... good choice of systems ... the synthesis will arise naturally. From past experience ... his strikes will have, if they don't all ready have, a stronger impulse off of first contact than a "pure" CLF adept ... and a depth of force penetration not typical of "pure" SPM peeps. Funny to read the opinions of others who do not study things such as Choy Li Fut, H'ung Ga, ... "they" always see the extended structures and immediately (wrongfully) conclude ... "Ah, long hand." Outsiders just don't get it ... the extended bridges are pure follow through with zone of contact being at almost point blank range. I don't bother explaining it to "them" as it is just a waste of my time. Very decent of him. Sure, Sifu Eduardo Barrios ... good, solid SPM system ... I "know" and respect those of the Dit Ngau Pai as Brothers. He personally knows me. David knows of me ... hope to meet with him when I'm next on his side of the pond[/QUOTE]
Haha, right on. . . . . no need to explain any more. How long have you been teaching? You seem to have a very good understanding of kung fu. As for what you said of "longfist," it is VERY true. Outsiders do indeed think, "long arm, long range," when in fact the truth is quite the opposite. Virtually all of our attacks emerge from point black range, and we definitely don't rely solely on the circular attacks. Again, this misconception comes from outsiders seeing our forms. However, miscalculations can be used to our advantage, as many a karate and TKD people have felt when they eat a Sau Choy at point blank (a few of my sihings have KOed and then gotten disqualified. . . . doesn't do quite well with point sparring). I believe the same principle lies with Hung Gar. Now in regards to something else. . . . . before ThaiMantis was saying something about SPM trying to strike "behind" the target as opposed to CLF/HG striking "through" the target. . . . he said that the two principles are quite different, but I'm still kinda confused as to what he was talking about. If you could clarify that would be great.
32 years come this June. As a Friend mine, Sifu and formally trained Classical Dancer best put it, "The Dance is not in the steps." The instant she said it ... it went "click" with me. Seems quite a few peeps in the UK make that mistake at full contact tourneys ... see arc ... arc bigger than "straight line" ... step in ... and get knocked out ... hmm ... forgot to factor in speed of arc ... hate when that happens. Sure ... some other systems as well. He's Chow Gar ... you should ask him directly. IME, "behind" refers to speed of impulse ... much like an arrow ripping through the target struck ... "through" refers to a denser ... more ponderous type of force production ... on par with ramming a spear into a target. Resolves down to the speed at which the force is deposited into the target struck. I gave you my understanding of it ... whether or not this conforms to his understanding ... what information he was trying convey is something you will have to ask him directly. I speak only for myself.
Geometric configuration ... Google "arc" and you will see it ... small segment of a larger circle is one way of looking at it. NOTE: The Human Form is incapable of producing "straight" line movement. All change in angle of lever arm (movement) is curve linear in nature ... sometimes "sharper" and sometimes more rounded.
yo.. Hey John. good to see you. Infrazel my knowledge of SPM is miniscule in comparison to JFS' and his description is more eloquent than i can usually manage anyway, and does indeed convey what I was (obviously) incapable of doing. i now defer to the Boss.
Thanks for the kind words and all ... however ... you are an excellent Rep for your chosen method ... as is Nish. Any chance of you making over here for Chinese New Year this year? Nish and his Girlfriend will be my Guests again this year. I keep telling him he ought to propose ASAP ... not many Women are even remotely tolerant of us KF peeps ... after about age 30 we draw more weird looks and whispered comments than compliments. With regard to the topic ... thanks for the confirmation. It comes down to speed of force load and surface area of force imparting weapon. Either way will work ... they produce an entirely different feel or shock. "Horses for courses." as my Friend Steven R. would say.
Well . . . I was more interested in a description of how it applies to martial arts. I know what an arc is.
As the Human Condition is incapable of making "straight line" movements .. all movement is curve linear in nature. Arcs, in a MA context are "snippets" of the whole ... the whole is a circle. Simplified example ... but accurate for the purposes of discussion. Let's use a "compare & contrast" format to convert geometry to something identifiable in MA and I'll use the English terms as many MA terms are system - style specific. We will restrict our considerations to "arcs" alone. Using H'ung Ga and SPM as rough approximation platforms consider the following. HG - From a left foot forward stance ... I strike forward from my right side - hand. The rotational (arc) sequence, from root to extending bridge, links and forms something like this: My feet move slightly in a counter-clockwise direction as the majority of my weight is transferred to the left foot side. Small arc. Using the "clock on the wall" model my feet would each move about 1 hour ... this movement would occur on the "3 o'clock" side of our model. All subsequent movements (arcs) are oriented toward the 3 o'clock side of our model and rotate (arc) towards and/or through the 12 o'clock point on the clock. Both examples assume a static start position, e.g., no Push Step or Tiger Step ... just striking from where standing. Hips - Waist region rotates counter-clockwise as the movement from my root - feet loads tension into this area. The two regions are now linked and move as one unit. Slightly larger arc. This area would move through an arc of about 2 hours. Shoulders rotate counter-clockwise as the movement from the above loads tension (pre-stretch) into this area, the 3 areas are now linked, and the bridge (right hand strike) extends. Largest of the arcs. The shoulder region would move through an arc of about 4 hours. SPM - Right foot is forward. There is a slight displacement of weight forward as the pelvis "rolls" or is "pulled" under. The root is heavy and the weight shift occurs as an "impulse" off of the rear held foot. Think of the first step a Sprinter takes as he/she comes out of the starting blocks. Small, rapid, explosive movement with the pelvis area rolling or tucking forward & under. The general direction of this movement is towards the 12 o'clock point. The upper body reconfigures ... Basket Weaver's Back & Monkey Chest and the small displacement in the lower region links to this upper body configuration. Movement is still oriented towards 12 o'clock with the arc being about 1 hour ... to the 11 o'clock side of our model. The right bridge extends with force for creating movement resulting primarily from the slight forward traverse of the lower body, linked to the upper torso reconfiguration and the right triceps muscle group. Arc is still from 12 o'clock sweeping towards 11 o'clock. Finally, the shoulder muscles are linked to the movement sequence and serve as both the final mechanism for extending the bridge ... the last control and fire link in the overall sequence. Still oriented 12 to 11 o'clock. If you view the above general model you will see that SPM begins its arcs at what would be the last few degrees of HG's arcs. Each method employs a similar arc sequence link up ... but SPM "starts" its arcs just shy of where the HG arcs terminate. This is what gives us (SPM) that "quirky" appearance. We initiate movement from what is almost the end of movement (HG) .. the links form very rapidly ... so there is not the smooth appearance that is typical of more widely sweeping arcs linking.
Nice . . . very technical. I am in southern kung fu as well so I "kind of" speak your language. Thanks
John, Thank you very much for contributing this! I gave it a quick scan and it looks amazing. I'm looking forward to diving deep into it. - Matt
thanks but i think your next post on arcs and power routes proved my point valid i'd love to John and will liase with Nish. ultimately it will depend on finances as always. it's looking promising though. lol no comment on Nish's marital status. we were discussing the difference in power generation between SPM & Choy Lee Fut which Infrazel explained as the comparable to the "Brick on a rope" theory, and i was trying to explain how SPM is different from that.
Old hat ... most know it ... but fail to realize it. Way cool ... this might well be the last year for many of the Elders ... they are rapidly aging out. Funny how time moves ... I've known many of these guys for over 3 decades ... I look at them and I still see them as they were all those years ago. Understood ... I'm going to keep beating on him ... he can't hurt me :bang: Rock on a rope ... the speed component of the velocity of the rock is approximately twice that of the inside turning circle ... very deceptive visually. Results in the perception that the hand "explodes" through the final piece of arc before impacting. Guys get cold cocked with it and generally remark "It moved so fast at the last instant that I didn't even see it."
It is powerful. . . . provided you have proper root, structure, and body mechanics when using the swing punches. However, one dilemma I, and many other CLF players are faced with is the utilization of such techniques. It is by far the most telegraphic of every technique I have seen, especially if you want that extra power (extra inch = extra power, so the bigger your "arc" is, the more power you generate). However, it is most used as a KO punch, and hard to get by a skilled opponent. It is used to break them when they are crumbling or taking the defensive. Your thoughts on how to use more telegraphic techniques to their full advantage, etc.
