Gunfighting martial art or martial not

Point shooting a handgun from the hip in the 21st century? And you don’t need to train shooting from the hip to be good at it? What? What is even GOING ON in this thread anymore? Shooting requires tons of training, and shooting from the hip is a Very Bad Idea.

And if you think training doesn’t matter, just remember:

(1) Even just drawing the gun wrong in a panic and you make a new hole in your leg, disabling you for months if you shatter the femur, and potentially dying if you hit the femoral artery;

(2) Legally and morally, you own every bullet you shoot, and if you’re shooting inaccurately from the hip, you’re responsible for where each miss ends up (and if you’re shooting from the hip and don’t train, most of your shots that aren’t at bad breath distances will miss);

(3) Most bullets will travel through multiple walls before stopping, which means killing your neighbor by missing a shot at a burglar is a very real risk for shooting from the hip without training.

 

Would you be open to a change of heart regarding your attitude towards firearm training if someone here went through the effort of linking educational material for you? If not, you're just wasting people's time asking for better counter arguments.

 

Anybody, who works every day with a gun, whether he actively uses it or not, is more experienced with it than you are.
Because... well, you know, he actually has to handle it and stuff.
Not just talking about it, because he used it twice on a range.

Where is the connection now?
What does that have to do with anything that was said?

People with a drivers license usually can't build car; but they know how to actually drive regularly compared to someone, who just sat at the wheel twice on a parking lot.
Surprising, huh?

Right, because it's exactly the same to shoot papers or actual people.
Or if you screw up on a range, compared to screwing up on the street, with people everywhere.

Why bother training things like that?!

So... People who are great at Kata, obviously are able to fight incredibly well, because after all: They can punch the air.

I'm sure, you get my point.

Whether you like it or not: Experience in lots of cases makes a major difference!
This is one of these cases.

 

First you inquired how to create your own martial arts system and now you've started a discussion about "gunfighting" as a martial art.

A year from now, are we going to be reading about Grandmaster Rataca's online gunfighting dojo with little or no formal training required?

 

Pretty much, in simple. My arguing knowledge is getting very strained to have argument on arguments at this point.XP If you can link me evidence of say 3 reasons why training under a instructor is beneficial i will yield. And the topic can return to what it was if anyone wants to.

20 people can be just as wrong as one person can, group support doesnt mean something is right. It can be a hint, but that in itself is not evidence of something being right. You also can not prove every one of those people supports that stance.

Your onto me. *Flies to Mexico*

You got the wrong title though, 11th degree Sifu in Ratdo. I wear a Rainbow belt to signify utter dominance of said style.

Nah, its just general intrest in said things. This one was sparked by me thinking of a valid argument to make as to why Gunfighting is a martial art actually.



Re reading this i am missing a line somehwere, i cannot see it currently, so it may be tagged onto a quote somehow. I have put the exact same thing in its place though, just if you see two lines of the same thing, ignore one.

Another disclaimer, i may start putting P's and C's by my writing again.

 

Seriously this is getting stupid.

With something like guns, which aren't exactly toys (and you mentioned yourself, you don't play with guns), these sort of argumentation is just off.

It's something, which use people need to learn properly, the handling, avoiding "usual" mistakes, not hurting oneself let alone innocent others, ... and with something that's also lethal in use.

And you really come along claiming: Nah, no need to properly train it.
All the people, who really know about guns, handle them every day, use them, teach how to use them, ... all these people are mistaken.
After all, I was on a range twice and hardly shot compared to these others - so my opinion is not only validated, correct and generally has a better base, than the opinion of aforementioned people, that use it on a daily basis.
(I know it's not a quite of something you said, but it's the gist)

You can't be serious?

People need a license and proper training, to be allowed to drive a car!
A "tool" that's not designed to hurt, maim or kill people.
And yet you claim, people don't need proper training for a gun?

And you base that on a little reading and two visits on a range?


Funny, but I think I will listen to people who actually know, what they're talking about.
Especially if there are way more of these people, even most of them, who state that.

 

The line of reasoning is literally too stupid to even insult....*out*

 

That is a serious point, as majorty doesnt magically justify soemthing or make it right. It can be a indicator, but it doesnt mean anything by itself. To avoid getting into politic and religion this is a exmple to said point and does not felect anything. If 100 people out of say 105 support the death penalty, does that mean the death penalty is right? Again its just a example, you dont need to or should argue around the death penalty.


For that second bit, too political to answer and would derail the thread to political ravings should i answer that.

 

The death penalty is a question of ethics. Operating a mechanical device with precision, while under pressure, is a question of skill. Exactly one of these two is dependent upon training to build muscle memory and skill.

Source: every darned question of operating a mechanical device with precision, especially while under pressure. Doesn't even have to be firearms related. Just because you intellectually know how to operate the tools in a shop class without cutting a finger off doesn't mean you can make a cabinet while someone is screaming at you. That takes practice.

 

The only thing you should be legally allowed to carry is a cap gun. Your utter lack of relevant experience, complete blindness to exactly how clueless you are coupled with the blunt force of your unshakable self belief sets new standards for arragonce, ignorance and stupidity.

 

That comparison just falls short.
Mitlov already mentioned why, so I won't bother repeating it.

 

20 people can still operate that machinery just as wrong as 1 person can.

Do you need to pay somone to scream at you? Not really. Would paying somone to scream at you improve how you work under pressure? Questionable.

To cite my example of trainign quick draws with a unloaded pistol or airsoft gun, what is an instructor going to do to make it diffrent? There is nothing you can do differently to drill that motion into your muscle memory so you dont forget how to do it under pressure. The most pressure you will get is doing a shooting drill involving live ammunition.

(to reiterate my point, this is aginst instructors training past legally required to get a licence)

 

You really, don't want to get the point, do you?

Because... why?
Because you might be wrong?

 

i get the point, im just refusing to take somones word for it.

 

If you don't need an instructor to train you, then why does every law-enforcement, military, and private security organisation in the world hire instructors. You cannot teach yourself you will pick up bad, dangerous, potentially fatal (to yourself and people around you) habits.

The fact that you shot at a range once and didn't muzzle anyone is not an indicator of skill, it is a minimum requirement that anyone with a brain cell should be capable of.

 

Wheres all the screaming coming from?

You do know shooting coaches aren't like the drill instructor in full metal jacket don't you?

 

Point out if you’re doing something wrong and thus reinforcing a bad habit instead of building a good habit?

Point out ways that you can do it better, safer, and more efficiently than you’re currently doing it?

Have you do various drills with divided attention or while struggling with someone with the other arm (simulating a defensive encounter), instead of just you alone doing it in an empty room with a calm mind and undivided attention?

 

I think my point got skewed at some point.
I dont refuse to take somones word for it on the experience front, if there is more than one person who can prove they have the experience to make a experience point. If they cannot prove it, you see the problem and if there is just a small sample, its a small sample has its own problem. Apart from the point you agreed with me below thats basically it. Intent waasnt to say who has or hasnt got experience it was to say for all purposes without showing me it, it doesnt exist. (and point you previously agreed on that doesnt make you inherently right ot a expert) Nullius in verba (Take no ones word for it) Motto for the royal society.

I do have the abiltity to take someone's word for it, a nd i sometimes do so to save arguing because its a diffrent argument to show someone evidence you have experience claimed to the point made. (elaborating it further)

Does that make it clearer?

 

Its a no from me.