So i was at my boxing gym today sparring. There happened to be a real wrestler/grappler (not those WWE guys!) who boxed too! He was telling me how he beat up a good boxer on the street once by simply holding the boxer's jab arm and punching him whenever the boxer tried to move forward. I guess the boxer was struggling with the wrestler dude cuz he was not used to fighting non boxers. Anyways, the wrestler ends up kneeing the boxer in the head and that was what turned the lights out! So this wrestler dude ends up saying that boxing is inferior to wrestling/grappling arts and that no boxer in the world could be him or grapplers like him. Now this guy is about 200 pounds, 6ft2 or so. He basically is a wrestling/grappling fanatic. What do you all think of his statement of grappler superiority and boxer's inferiority? I mean, if boxing is sooooooo BAD, why the hell is this grappler dude also taking up boxing for?!
depends on the situation. if the wrestler/grappler gets in clinch distance, then the fight's over. but if the boxer keeps him at a distance & keeps connecting with punches, then he has the upper hand. now if you have a boxer that cross trains in wrestling and/or some kind of grappling art, and has very good take-down defense, then the other guy can't take him down, so the boxer would eventually knock him out with a good punch.
Generally speaking, it's easier to close a fight to a clinch or to the ground than it is to disengage from it (Especially when the grappler knows how to strike a bit). Thus, grapplers tend to beat strikers. Just watch the old Gracie challenge match tapes.
Boxing is a very specific sport. Of course you are going to run into trouble with someone outside of the box.. thats why you have to cross train, which is why the grappler is cross training in boxing!
I think what you need to do is give it a go. Slap on the gloves and let a wrestler or grappler shoot on you. Let's see how long you can keep them out. See how many damaging shots you can land before you end up on your back tied in a knot. Odds are.... not very long and not very many and tied in a knot very soon. Grapplers don't mind taking a few hits just to be able to get your ankle or your knee. Once they do... if you haven't got any ground tech. then it's pretty much game over for you. There is always the strikers luck of a knee to the face... but it' far from a sure bet. If we look just at MMA type matches we can see people who's striking skills outweigh their grappling skills - they get people shooting in and taking them down all the time. Punches don't really do the job of keeping a strong shooter out in most cases. Now granted the punching skills of most of the guys you see in that evironment lack big-time in comparison to most of the guys where are full time boxers... a different sport - a different focus. So as others have stated - it pays to crosstrain. Boxing is a great foundation to have... but it's not the complete picture. Just like wrestling is a great foundation to have... but not the complete picture. Go with one - gain some level of proficiency and then take a look at it's weak spots and train for that. Seems like that is what your man is doing.
Im afraid, boxers have no hope against grapplers. Defending the take down is alot harder than going in for one. Duck your cross and they have you. Can you recover enough to sprawl? Doubtful. Boxing is still the king of ma though .
Kind salutations, One feels, given the current debate, that perhaps the contents of Mr H. G. Wells' novella "The Time Machine" has come to pass. Indeed, upon perusing the current forum, one can only conclude that one has perhaps regressed through the fourth dimension and finds oneself at least a century prior to the time into which I was birthed. This is a most perplexing event and one which I hope the kind gentlemen of this forum might aid me in remedying. With regards, Mr I. M. A. Moose, esq.
I think it really all depends on if the wrestler/grappler is trained only for wrestling/grappling or if they are training for MMA or streetfighting. For example I have began training in judo and decided with a few of my judo class mates to test judo against my standup ( All three dominate me in Judo Randori). Results: within the first session I only got taken down 4 times within 45 minutes training. Three more training sessions and the ratio had changed to being taken down 9 times out of 10. Which goes to prove that (a) my standup is C**p (B) Grapplers need to train in avoiding the strike to be profficiant in dealing with strikers as usually they only train for going up against other grapplers. But once they are profficiant in avoiding the strike the grappler almost always wins.
i agee with what slip is saying. totally but here are my two cents anyway......grapplers are bettere than strikers.....is this cerca 1996? sure grapplers beat strikers.....right up into the point when you meet a grappler who can also stike....and he just stays up avoids yourtakedowns and beats the stew out of you cause you only know how to wrestle.....(chuck liddlel, vanderlay silva, rashade evans )
Boxing or Brawling I believe you are being to strict on the boxer. If a boxer does not know how to use his knees and unable to use elbows, standing in a box not moving or brawling, yes he is now at a disadvantage. The fights of old where it was a grappler and a brawler the brawler was pretty hard to beat, with strick wrestling skills. Times have changed and so have the results. I am not totally convinced that the well rounded fighter is not the best for your everyday scrap. Punchers and movers are very hard to beat. Most Boxers come from a brawling background in my experience. If you notice the fight where Matt Hughes just recently lost his title, it was a stand up loss. I believe your FMA fighters, and Muay Thai are pretty well versed, your true technician is at a real disadvantage in todays art unless he is well heeled in many of the arts. One dimensional is out, unless it is Boxing vs boxing and wrestling vs wrestling. With lots of rules. Many people enjoy good technical bouts and not just brawling. Gary
I don't get it. He held onto the boxer guy's lead arm? The only ways I can picture this is if he was chest to chest with him holding his arm in some lock (in which case I don't see how the "punching him every time he tried to move forward" thing would work because I don't see how either guy can punch from that position) or if he was at some distance away holding the guy's wrist and punching away in which case I don't see why the boxer guy wasn't also punching (putting the wrestler at a disadvantage) or why he couldn't great this hold (it's a pretty simple hold to break unless one guy is much, much bigger in which case this story isn't as impressive). If you could clarify this for me it would be easier for me to believe. As for the good ol' boxer vs. wrestler debate, the one thing that always bothers me is that at the optimal range for a wrestler a totally untrained person can do all sorts of nasty things to put a hurt on him. All those early UFCs would have looked a lot different if one guy could have just reached up an stuck his fingers in Royce Gracie's or Mark Coleman's or whoever’s eyes. Fighting isn't a sport, and there are good reasons why most martial arts train at fighting from a distance. This wrestler guy may be able to beat up some boxers, but if he gets caught on the chin by a good boxer his own size he'll be in deep trouble. If he gets some mean/****ed off boxer/whoever to the ground and gets bitten or poked or whatever he may be in big trouble as well. As you said, it seems like he knows this if he's training boxing as well.
Or he might just get his arm broken From what I understand, the kenpo guy tried to stick his fingers in the grappler's eyes, and ended up in a keylock. Seriously, the whole notion of fighting dirty mystically nullifying ground grappling is rediculous. If anything, fighting dirty is going to help the better grappler on the ground - just look at Gracie vs Kimo, where Gracie held Kimo's hair while he was in guard and repeatedly punched him in the eye. What if someone decided to Mike Tyson your ear off from back control? Or screw their thumbs into your eyes while you're pinned?
Yes the grappler dude is tall and heavy built. about 6 ft 1 or 2, around 200+ pounds or so. The boxer he beat was skilled but only about 5 ft 8 I believe. And the target the grappler was using to hit was the boxer's face. **BTW, I am versed in Wing Chun (though I need many more years to refine it). I taped the sparring session this past sunday and have living proof that it is possible to fight up close to someone in clinching/headbutting distance. I did it to a southpaw dude the other day who likes to really step in and wail away or clinch you in arm locks; i beat him to the punch most of the time when he did this though (lol does it count that i used a vertical punch with my jab hand in such a close range? ). Also, he did something with his leg to me, like tried to trip me or trap my leg but I did something my Sifu trained me to do with someone when I can feel their leg= take my lead foot that they are trying to jam/trap and place mines behind THEIR feet that is closes to me. It worked! And I was basically BEHIND THIS Southpaw dude! P/S I think the Southpaw dude trained in Muay Thai or/and Chinese MA b4. Thats why he loves getting in close and trapping the arms/legs of his opponent. That PLUS he sometimes switches from orthadox to southpaw. Luckily I only faced him when he was southpawing it. There are also examples in the video of me using footwork to get into various angles to strike him and evade him. I was not just standing still and fighting him up close only. **Anyone know of a way I can transfer a VHS video recoring onto DVD and eventually onto the internet? I would love to show you guys the sparring session. Cuz I REALLY REALLY nailed him with more than a few good jabs to the chin, straight rights, body shots, and a few left hooks to his right cheek and tempo! Another guy in the boxing gym told me I was the first person who actually made the southpaw dude go flying back and off balance ever in his 3 years of sparring in boxing! Thanks to FMA's footwork that my Sifu taught me(he teaches and studies Kali too), I was in strange angles the southpaw never experienced b4. And to think 2 weeks ago him and another southpaw dude took advantage of me and TOOK MY MANHOOD! lol. P/S for those who think Manny Pacquiao has no footwork and he is ackward in movement, think again. He has very very tricky and skilled footwork to deal with. To insult him as a mere lucky puncher would be ignorance. Lucky punchers do not accomplish what Manny Pacquiao has accomplished. Prince Naseem Hamed basically was a lucky puncher with good reflexes. Naseem dominated his weight division till Kevin Kelley and Marco Antonio Babarra came on the scene and gave him trouble. Manny Pacquiao however did what Naseem never did, he BEAT Marco Antonio Barrara with little trouble. That IS NOT LUCKY PUNCHING, THAT MY FRIENDS IS MANNY PACQUIAO AFTER MANY YEARS OF WORKING ON UNIQUE AND GOOD FOOTWORK... And of course the rest is history. Pacquiao beat Morales twice in their second and 3rd encounter. Not lucky punching. Good footwork, improved boxing skills, and speedy punches with power. NOW BACK TO BOXERS VS GRAPPLERS!
Of course it goes both ways. The point is, either guy (the skilled grappler or the untrained guy) can get his fingers to the target pretty easily at such a close distance. Not so at boxing distance. My point is that these "dirty tactics" tilt the balance towards the less trained guy on the ground more than they do at arm's length or more. I'm not talking about "mystically nullifying" anything; I'm just making the point that allusions to sport encounters (UFC, Pride etc) don't make that much sense relative to actual no rules fights where "dirty" tactics change the balance of what works best.
A lot of boxing and wrestling is watered down or perhaps overly specialized compared to the grappler verse fighter competitions at the turn of the last century (early 1900s). I've been told that back then you had fighters, grapplers, and hookers (fish hookers). The fighters were primarily strikers but they knew some grappling and hooking. The grapplers were specialized in grappling. The hookers were specialized in fishhooking. There were no pure strikers, all strikers learned how to wrestle or deal with grappling in effect making them more rounded fighters. Fighters (strikers) won most of the time I also have been told. The idea behind grapplers was that by specializing in grappling, they could use it to defeat the fighters. When the grappler was successful in shutting down the fighters ability to attack, the grappler could win, and often a very skilled grappler did win over a fighter. Hookers had incredible hand and finger strength. A hooker was specialized in grabbing parts of the body and ripping and tearing them off using fishhooking. As you might have figured out, a skilled hooker could dominate a grappler that did not know how to defend against it. ------------- And the way I measure watered down or not, my rule of thumb is will it work against someone that is a lot bigger and stronger than you. If it will not work reliably against someone a lot bigger and stronger than you, it is probably watered down (not that it is bad to learn) only that it isn't as practical as you probably want for real world. How many boxers can punch out someone one hundred fifty pounds heavier than them? How many wrestlers can take someone out one hundred fifty pounds heavier than them? If they can, then they have good stuff. If they can't, they aren't skilled enough or just maybe they only know watered down stuff. IMHO.
Thanks for that post. I'd never seen the full clip. Just up to the point of the break. Sorry but I found it hilarious. From the get go it's fairly obvious where it's going. The KF guy is about as nervous and tight as possible. I dunno what school of KF he comes from (WC?) but it was rather obvious that he was gonna get mauled in short order. The guy actually took it rather easy on him... if he'd wanted to he could have bloodied him into hamburger. That the grappler had the dominant position only bears out that if dirty techniques were used - and in this case dirty being eye gouges etc. - like they were in this bout... the grappler stands a far betting chance of putting more hurt on... of course he does... he's got the dominant and controlling position.
I think it also has to do with the way a lot of boxers have been mentally conditioned. They have been "educated" to believe they can only fight people of their size and weight all their careers. By their coaches, fellow boxers, promoters, etc. I mean, the whole notion of a "weight class" proves this. When was the last time you saw a jr lightweight fight a heavyweight? I mean, even if this happens most times the jr lightweight is already defeated psychologically due to all that he has been taught about fighting based on size and height. And I don't even think it is just boxing per se. If you look at society (Western society?), we are brought up to believe the bigger, taller, stronger man will always win in a fight. So no one even attempts to destroy the myth by fighting someone larger, taller, stronger than them?
you find a half decent wrestler who wants to take you down, and you're going down period. thats all we ever do damnit, hundreds and hundreds of takedowns. but now i've got mat burn on my knees! :cry:
That clip was boring. I think the sheer weight advantage was part of it, but bascially, thats what a striker vs a grapper looks like, usually.
Your post brought to mind Danny Hodge. Most people these days won't know him unless they're keen grappling historians... or Golden Gloves boxing afficianados... but here goes some... enjoy - he held both wrestling titles and Golden Gloves titles - one of the very few people to ever to do so. Gotta love the oldschool!: and a link to another good article on him: http://www.canoe.ca/SlamWrestlingBiosH/hodge_danny.html
