MOOSULMASTER: I suppose that did do a discredit towards those that can seriously do some damage on the battlefield, huh? I did not mean to compare a man that would rip off his own students, or school owners in his own area, to those that truly strive to become amazing role models and true martial arts masters. But we have to sift through the bull to find who is the "real deal" and who is not. If someone makes up their own art, are they not in the same boat? If I combined, oh let's say, Tae Kwon Do/Kuk Sool/Hapkido/Tang Soo Do....what would that make me? I'm not sure to be honest. Just another guy wearing a gold lined generals uniform? Another founder? I myself practice a system that encompasses both forms and techniques from Kuk Sool AND Hwa Rang Do (I teach this syllabus to only certain students in my school). It has an undergraduate and graduate program making it a rather comprehensive study of the three major arts of Korea: Tae Kwon Do (Tae Soo Do is just a modified Tae Kwon Do built for Hwa Rang Do...trust me. LOL) Hwa Rang Do and Kuk Sool Hapkido. So if I were to pop up in my gold uniform and be the founder of this new style (insert name here)...would I be on this joke list as well? Would YOU support me sir? Or would you all make a thread about me saying "he's too young", "he's inexperienced", "someone re-created the wheel", etc. I truly do wonder.
While not addressed to me, I find your questions quite interesting and I would like to respond to them, because you raise some very interesting points. Ultimately, IMHO, one must look at the martial art and the martial artist in question. Looking at the art is easier, so we can begin there. Look at promotion requirements. Are they roughly in sync with the root arts? In other words, are your requirements for black belt (or whatever it is) close enough to the requirements for a black belt in your root systems that they are comparable? For example, and I am making up numbers here because I am not familiar with the styles you teach, if to reach Black Belt in TKD you needed to demonstrate mastery of 15 different forms including two weapon forms as well as 25 one-step and two-step drills, but in your style you only need master 7 forms including one weapon, and 15 one and two-step drills, one could believe that your style would potentially have lower standards and be easier. If, however, since you are combining different styles, you made your black belt requirement approximately the equivalent of earning a black belt in BOTH TKD and Hapkido, for example, combining the forms and techniques from both (removing any obvious overlap), then your art could be perceived as more respectable at least from the standpoint that you are not watering down the root arts, but combining them and harmonizing them into a coherent whole. Then we must look at the martial artist himself: Is he a self-aggrandizing marketeer who displays huge cases of trophies and ribbons from tournaments in order to show how successful he is? Does he list difficult-to-verify qualifications (trained Seal Team 6, anyone?) or present a history of his art that conflicts significantly with known histories of other arts (such as the guy who claims all martial arts started in Korea)? Since he's creating a new art, what are his credentials in the root arts? Is he willing to talk about his credentials in the root arts? Ultimately, you are responsible for your own credibility. Mr. Jeannotte has damaged his greatly by refusing to answer simple questions about his lineage and training. He may, in fact, be as qualified as he claims to be and he may be a truly phenomenal martial artist, but his refusal to answer simple questions about his lineage and training casts a significant shadow of doubt on those possibilities. Would you be on the "joke list"? That is ultimately up to you. There are ways to create new martial arts that will keep you off of the joke list. Kano, Uyeshiba, Oyama, and Lee all did it without becoming jokes. Then there are ways to do it that will put you on the joke list, such as John C. Kim or (for those of you old enough to remember) Fred Villari. In the martial arts community, as in many others, you must earn respect. There are many ways to earn that respect. Mr. Jeannotte very carefully avoided the easiest and most credible ones given the circumstances at the time. That is why his credibility has been called into question. I will go so far as to say that everyone should, at some time, try to create their own art after studying other styles. This mental exercise would be to help reconcile differences or to coordinate differing components into a coherent whole. That, after all, is what the previous founders did.
Personally, I extremely skeptical that thread’s like these are motivated by some sort of noble consumer protectionism. We all know there are frauds in the martial arts, but I think I would be a little insecure of me if I were to go on the internet call out the alleged fraud of a specific person, especially one that hardly anyone would have ever heard of where it not for this thread. And for Querist, I think that if one were to make an art similar to Taekwondo, but require less forms (or whatever) I think that the litmus test whether or not this art was any good would be how well it's black belts could fight, not how much memorization they did…but hey, I guess I’m just old fashioned.
I agree that fighting ability is the final measure, but it is also very difficult to measure in a controlled, repeatable way that lends itself to consistency in grading over a large region. How do you incorporate fighting into a grading requirement? Just because I could beat everyone in my high school in chess did not automatically mean I was a wonderful chess player. I just had minimal real competition. When I encountered some REAL competitive players, I did not do as well. I was looking at standardized grading requirements as one measure of the requirements of an art. I think we would all be suspicious of a martial art where you could, in theory, go from zero to black belt in six months. In theory, at least, you should be able to have a rough idea of how skilled a person is based on his or her rank if your martial art uses ranks. You expect a black belt to have a certain minimum level of ability, and it would be better than an yellow belt, for example. Also, you would like to think that a black belt in one traditional Korean art is approximately as skilled in his or her art as a black belt of similar rank in a different art is skilled in his or her art. Fighting skill is important, but it is difficult to measure objectively. That's why grading requirements tend to have more objective components from what I've seen. That's all.
You are most welcome. This does raise an interesting point, however. The whole issue of quality control in the martial arts has been bantered about here on MAP in different areas, such as the "Importance of Rank" thread in Ninjitsu and the "Quality Control in the Bujinkai" (or whatever it is) thread elsewhere. Rank requirements are an interesting topic because we need to find a balance between objectivity of the testing and the relevance of the testing to actual combat efficacy.
Since I made the OP I can assure you that I was motivated neither by "noble consumer protectionism" or insecurity, as a matter of fact my name is clearly written on the bottom of my posts. One might find me brash, but not insecure. As far as my motivation for creating the thread? I was simply bored and found this guy hilariously funny! I thought I would post the conversation on a lark. You know .... haha, funny?? I guess some folks find it politically incorrect to take a laugh at BS. I never intended this thread to be seriously insightful. I just find it all very funny! If you think that i'm insecure,I could really care less. :evil: I find it odd that you get on a high horse by being critical of my thread, while I have been very up front about my intentions the whole time. (I think this shows your insecurity!) lol jk :banana::banana::banana:
I don't find rank to be THAT important, I do however find honesty to be very important! The issue at hand is not about rank, it is about honesty.
Ok, fair enough. I'll give you that I should not question your motivation and offer my apology. I mean, ever since I fist became involved in MA, the exposure to frauds, liars, and various nutcases has been virtually non-stop, so personally I'm just over giving it attention. It seems to me that we "martial arts geeks" (I include myself here) can get up on our high horses pretty quick, and sometimes I think it may be more counter productive to give these people exposure. .. just sayin'
I think in order to talk about this you would have to agree on some basic assumptions about what rank means. Some people will view rank as a reflection of combat efficacy. This is a position I understand, but do not agee with. Personally, I tie rank to seriousness of study, rather than the result alone. The skill is the byproduct. (By study, I mean the study of the non-physical components, well). :topic:
This I do agree with Convergencezone but in Kuk Sool what we teach is balance. To balance all aspects of your life both inside and outside the art. If you block a punch, the block should be able to turn into a hit. If you throw a hit, it should be able to turn into a block. A front roll should be able to turn into a counter attack and so on. What I mean by saying all this is simple: if I focus on just the art, doing my forms/techniques/weapons, and studying all the history behind this particular art...I very may well turn into a "Buddha Belly Master". But, if I focus on making my art into a combat effective system while at the same time studying the Ki breathing, philosophy behind the forms/techniques/weapons, and why we begin and end our sword forms right where we started (for those of you wondering, it symbolizes not letting your personel self change throughout the battle; what happened during combat should not change you as a person. You should begin and end as you were. Just one part on the philosophy of Kuk Sool) then not only am I a "martial art geek" but also a pretty combat effective "martial art geek". I should be able to balance the Kuk Sool Chul Hak and Kuk Sool Yuhk Sah (Philosophy and History) with the Hwal Yang Sool (Free Combat) of Kuk Sool. Balance....
Agreed. I am not saying that I don’t require study of application, just that the seriousness of study counts more than the end results in my mind. If you are 25 years old and physically fit and study seriously, and correctly, I believe that you have a 100% chance of being able to use your martial art. If you are 80 years old and throw your heart in practice every night, to the best of your ability, well, then you might not be that combat effective, but you are probably a “serious student” (what I consider a black belt). In my mind, I’ll also go so far as to say the philosophy behind martial arts cannot be learned without live practice, sparring, and application. Martial arts philosophy, in my opinion, involves maintaining a calm mind, staying in the moment and facing danger. You practice being calm by putting yourself in situations where this might be difficult (sparring, for example), you practice staying in the moment and face danger (in a controlled setting) by putting yourself in situations where that’s necessary (getting thrown , sparring). Of course, that’s not all there is to it. Thanks for letting me know that about the sword forms, I actually never knew that.
CZ: Very valid point that had not occured to me during my post. I do say that exact same thing in my school. It IS the heart that matters. We strive to become good martial artists but today martial arts means so many different things: health, happiness, respect, positive alternative to ADD medication, and the happiness an older person gets from finally learning martial arts. These are important things as well (thank goodness otherwise most of us would be hard pressed for students, right? LOL). I agree completely. There are many principles behind our weapon forms that people don't see. The staff is based off the snake and it's circular movements and quick strikes. The staff should not be considered as one piece of "hard" wood but more like a whip made out of wood (if that makes sense). It generates twice the power. Or that each open hand form at color belt level (Ki Cho - Guhm Mu) represents a different element (wind, water, fire, earth, metal, unification or YWH). Understanding the deeper aspects behind the forms/techniques will help you tremendously on your material and will help turn you into a better "Kuk Sooler". CHADDERZ: American version, mostly south. Slang much like the wonderful "cockney accent" people bray in England. Not all of you do it but we don't point it out when you do...I think it's because in America pointing out that kind of stuff show's an inferiority complex or something. I dunno. It's rather pointless to point it out. Some of us "ain't so good with that them there spellings and what nots, a'ight?" LMAO
Seriously??? This is the argument that everyone uses all the time when someone is brought into question. I am no saint, I have made mistakes, but in the martial art that I teach I don't make crazy unverifiable claims as to my lineage and rank. Period. We teach and train in MARTIAL ARTS - here, specifically Hapkido - if I am teaching crappy material, people might get KILLED - this is no a pottery group! I mean, I might try to teach how to mold clay, but the end result of me not knowing what I am doing really might NOT get someone injured. PLEASE grow a pair! When a Hapkido teacher makes unsubstantiated claims - we should totally care! Especially as this is an art whose Founder died only in 1986! And if the claims are made on the "Ji" side of the fence, I bet he can be reached by phone in New Jersey. Sure, there are always gonna be fakes - but we need to stop thinking this is an episode of "Kung Fu" and realize that if bad people teach BAD material in the name of an art that one spends a lifetime researching and training in it is damaging to the art as a whole. If someone is a great fighter - that's great - but don't call it Hapkido - call it "my ass-kicking style" - but leave Hapkido out of it when you don't have the legitimate ranks commensurate with the title you are claiming. The internet has allowed us the freedom of disseminating a great amount of information that anyone can view - and in fact this can be a great thing for someone new to the art looking for information -but it does mean that the frauds can do the same as they wish - that is why it is important to question suspicious rank. From my personal training life - lets take my first "full time" Hapkido teacher, Robert "Bob" Miller...a charismatic, charming, DYNAMIC, individual who came to the UK from New York claiming rank and lineage in Hapkido. He was a good fighter, I saw this personally, he was fast, flexible, and talked a good game...however he still gave the Hapkido folks in the UK pause...while he could fight well, his Hapkido base seemed a little thin - especially for a 5th Dan...but the dojangs he ran were PACKED to capacity! He was deported for not having the proper visas to live and work in the UK...and fortunately for me, I was already associated with GM Fred Adams, so I was unaffected in my training (which only got better) - HOWEVER, there were a string of people in the US and the UK that were after Bob for a series of crimes, and had the internet been around, tracking him down would have been a few clicks away...and as for Bob now... I was involved in a multi-jusidictional Federal case ( I ended up being the only person with his ACTUAL signature on paper) - the outcome of which, as the Federal Agent explained to me, Bob is considered the most dangerous sociopath in the Federal Prison system, and is locked up in a 24 hour a day lit cell somewhere in an underground cell group in Baltimore...just think what we could have done with the internet then! Please understand that I agree with the need to be compassionate - as a human being AND a martial artist - but because we are not engaged in the practice of teaching marshmallow roasting, but teaching and training in a fighting art, lets leave the kumbaya for those that don't care if they survive a conflict...
Honesty is more important than rank, but I think that honesty about rank is very important because people will base decisions on the perceived rank of the instructor. With all other things being equal, would you rather your instructor be a second dan or a sixth dan? I suspect that most people would opt for the sixth dan given the choice because the higher rank equates to more experience in most people's minds.
But that is the point. What exactly does a specific rank mean to most people? For people familiar with the martial arts, a 1st dan means that you've learned the foundations of the art. To the average non-martial-artist, a black belt means you're an "expert".
No! I have a hobby! That's why I'm on this forum! It just really ****es me off when people say that! It's not what they mean and every American does it! D: Sorry for the rage but you know... It's a pet hate.
And overly broad generalizations are annoying, too. I am an American and I use the phrase "couldn't care less" correctly. Some of us can and do use the language properly.
