Grand Master In Hyuk Suh's Uniform - or - Grand Master Byung In Lee's Uniform

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by Ki_Power, Jul 27, 2010.


Which Do You Like Best

  1. Grand Master Suh's Uniform

  2. Grand Master Lee's Uniform

  1. Out-to-Lunch

    Out-to-Lunch Valued Member

    Yeah...have you seen SGD? Do you have any familiarity with it at all? It is NOT a martial art in the conventional sense...but rather a meditative art form used to enhance Seon Bulgyo practice.

    You scoff, and yet I highly doubt you know anything about SGD. If you've seen it, you would not even try to place ZM Kim in the realm of traditional (MARTIAL) arts masters; the two and not even in the realm of comparison.

    Just because someone may be a master painter, it does not mean them a master sculptor. Yet both are artists, and perhaps masters.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2010
  2. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Thanks, OTL:

    As far as I can tell the "Eastern Sea" movement began in 1963 which KIM Jeong-ho reported that he began training in Korean sword under a monk named CHANG Park San. Following his training he will develop the World Hae Dong KumDo Association based on this premise. During legal proceedings in the 1990-s it was revealed that HAE DONG KumDo was a fabrication of Kim’s own design integrating Gi Cheon esoteric practices and SHINKUMDO, a sword art resulting from a nocturnal inspiration to a monk named KIM Chang Sik.

    If there are some romanization hairs to be split I would be interested to hear more. I also have to be honest and share that I have tired of the never-ending "distinctions without differences" that seem to dog the trails of one KMA after another. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

  3. Out-to-Lunch

    Out-to-Lunch Valued Member

    Kim Chang Sik is indeed the Zen Master and founder of the art of Shim Gum Do (per his own romanization) of which we are speaking. He founded SGD during a 100 day Zen retreat.

    No hairs to split Bruce, but I was a little confused when you used three different romanizations. My thoughts are to simply stick with the romanization actually used by the group we're talking about. For instance, Shim Gum Do is the romanization used by ZM Kim Chang Sik, not SHINKUMDO...In this instance the hangul for Shim (심) versus SHIN (신) is not even the same.

    Now, this is not the case with Haidong Gumdo, but it's important to note that Haidong Gumdo is the romanization used by GM Jeong Ho Kim for his World Federation, whereas Haedong Kumdo is the romanization used by other groups. This can become even more important when ownership and legality is introduced to the picture. Case in point, WKSA. The group's name is World KUK SOOL Association, not Guk Sul, Kook Sool, Gook Sul etc.
  4. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Not choosing sides here, kidosool, but FWIW that *magic number* of 3608 was a result of some mathematical permutation and dropped by WKSA-HQ over 15 years ago as an "official" statement (due to older literature, many instructors in the Won still cite it, however). Facts are facts and worth getting right, wouldn't you agree?

    As for your more recent posts, it would be MY guess that when Bruce wrote "shin" instead of "shim" that it was probably a simple typo, despite the fact that due to his other inconsistency (KUMDO vs. GUMDO), it was confusing to say the least.

    Also if not mistaken, I think wickedpædia outlines the difference and distinction between both korean "sword-method" groups. :cool:
  5. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I think the final straw for me, in the matter of Romanization, was the recent advertisement for "habgido" (sic), though I have not forgotten the recent consideration of DAE GWON DO over TAE KWON DO. Over the years I have suffered through Gawd knows how many threads of the "you-say-toe-may-toe; I say toe-ma-toe" variety and can only ask to "call the whole thing off." As far as I can tell its simply the same political and marketing wrangling hiding behind a spelling bee. As you mentioned its altogether mot unlike the WKSA bickering by another name, and not so very far removed from identifying a Korean monk as practicing "Zen". Zen too I suppose it would be possible for a Korean monk to actually follow Zen since there are a number of Christians who follow such training and seem to have no moral problem. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Last edited: Aug 26, 2010
  6. Hyeongsa

    Hyeongsa The Duelist

    Sorry folks, I'm gonna rant for a minute:

    There are only so many ways to hold a sword, swing a sword, and sheathe a sword. After a while, all the sword forms start looking alike though there may be different steps and turns. When it comes to Kuk Sool, I've said it once and I'll say it again: certain forms that we practice (1st Dahn up) are historical forms as much as some of you hate to admit it. Bae Pahl Ki Hyung was/is a form practiced by BulKyul MuSool monks. Kyuk Pah Hyung was a tribal or villagers form. SahmBa Cho Hyung same thing. Woon Ohk Hyung has northern influences (probably from China) but is still a historical form. I have seen the documents in which it was contained. Sorry to burst your bubble, but just because it didn't come from China or Japan our out of the MYDBTJ doesn't mean its not real. Just means its not well known (I will try to upload the pictures I have of this). Kuk Sa Nim stated more than once that the "Geup" forms (Ki Cho Hyung, Cho Geup Hyung etc) were his creation, although actually the creation of the Kuk Sool Hap Hyul Hwe, to better understand the basic movements/principles of Kuk Sool and the the higher ranking forms practiced later on.

    I teach forms out of the MYDBTJ in along with the forms that the Kuk Sool syllabus outline. The HDGD forms (however the hell you romanize it) are interesting and beautiful but not really...real. Which sucks, because I'll be honest, they look cool. SOME of the sword dancing forms ARE real, however and are preformed for good luck ceremonies or whatever. So, lets be honest here: lies walk hand in hand with the truth. Some of us on here have practiced for a while in the Korean arts. Can we truly say that we haven't changed a "single thing" from how we were originially taught our forms/techniques/weapons? If you can sit here and say "nope, nope I do it just like I am suppose to", then I don't believe you. Sometimes you HAVE to modify. Do we all kick like Master Sung Jin Suh? Are we as fast as Master Tae Joon Lee? Are we as fluid as Master Byung In Lee? No. So we modify: every teacher does. I'm not good at certain things so I modify the technique or form to fit MY body type. I'm sure the forms have been modified once or twice (even the almighty Chinese and Japanese forms; oh my, I said it! LOL) Best example: ANYONE that has seen the form Woon Hahk Hyung done by Master Barry and Choon-Ok Harmon, Master Sung Jin Suh, Master Steve Seo, Master Marlin Sims, or various others, will notice that ALOT of things are different from each way its done. But which way is the right way? They all are (technically) since they follow the similiar path.

    Monks have long been known as the "Defenders of the Korean Nation" and were called upon from time to time to defend the nation. They practiced martial arts for meditation but were more than capable of kicking butt now and then. There are many historical pictures depicting monks holding swords, spears, staffs, etc. so its not a strange though of a monking wielding a sword to me. Shaolin Monks wield sword and I don't here anyone saying anything about that...?

    The technique issue is...complicated, to say the least. Technically, we DO have 3608 techniques: if you include kicking, punching, weapons, breaking, breathing, grappling, forms, etc. A technique is just a "skill" and in some styles, they don't use the word "Hyung" but "Sool" or "Sul". Take Hwa Rang Do for example: they use Jung Gum Sul or Straight Sword Technique as a name for their form. So, are they fudging the facts? No. Are they using it to market their art better? You bet your ass they are. But thats all martial arts is these days is marketing, I'm sorry to say.

    If I go to my garage, make up a form, and teach it as a "Traditional Form" am I lying? No, becuase its based off Traditional movements. Is it a historical form? Give it 5 more minutes and it will be. LMAO Theres a fine line between "Traditional" and "Historical", I think. Unless someone else thinks different on that matter, which I'd love to hear.

    Anyway, rant over and I'm not even sure what I said or if I have a point. Each person feels differently about martial arts. Each person views it a different way. And we've all fudged the facts before, either on purpose or by accident. For a time, I though the color belt forms in Kuk Sool were ancient Hwa Rang forms. Woops! LOL It happens. Just be happy we have Kuk Sool, Hapkido, Hwa Rang Do, HDGD, and the lot to keep ourselves entertained. The rest, as they say, is history.

    My two cents.


    UK, on the statement that the "won" droped the 3608 teq. 15 years ago.....well it must have resurfaced because I have in GM suhs handwriting as late as 2007 that there are infact 3608 teq. . (he wrote that # down at his annual seminar.)

    I'm fairly sure he still quotes that # but that is my last written record as I gave the later papers away to srudents attending the siminar.
  8. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned


    I'll be the first to admit that I'm wrong, once shown to have made a mistake. ;)

    But for the record, I never said the 3608 technique thing was untrue or false in any way. I merely pointed out that WKSA stopped using it in their OFFICIAL statements concerning what comprises kuk-sool. FWIW

    When I mentioned that the number was derived from a "mathematical permutation" I was alluding to the fact that a technique done on the opposite side counts as a separate technique, so any complaints about locking the elbow out straight being a variant of KBS #6 and therefore not a "new" or "different" technique, is just unwillingness to accept that according to the original reckoning, each variation WAS considered separately (not to mention that kicks & strikes, as Hyeongsa pointed out, were also part of the mix). Taking all of this into consideration, attaining a total of 3608 isn't really all that incredible.
  9. Out-to-Lunch

    Out-to-Lunch Valued Member

    Seriously? As I recall we've been here done this before.

    FWIW the only reason that romanization was important in this issue was to distinguish the various groups, and from a legal perspective (copyright etc) that IS important, especially considering that court rulings played a part in the true history of HDGD being brought to light.
  10. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

  11. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I pretty much agree with all that you shared. Shuffling four different kinds of steps, 12 different cuts, five thrusts and all of the attendent parries gives quite a number of recombinations. Not ALL of these combinations are going to be combat worthy or even of value equal to others. This where the idea of a HYUNG having a particular theme comes in. For instance, a form may specialize only in those combinations shown to be particularly effective in tight situations, against a spear, against a rope, fighting on a slippery hillside and so forth.

    I tend to focus on older forms for two reasons. One reason is that I have faith that the more productive forms are the ones that have survived to this day. The other is that even on my best day, I probably could not come up with anything better than than which has already been invented. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

  12. Hyeongsa

    Hyeongsa The Duelist


    Kuk Sa Nim, In Hyuk Suh now has a new uniform. It's black and actually mirrors Chong Je Nim, Byung In Lee's uniform. I have yet to find a picture of it.
  13. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    Disagree about IHS mirroring BIL, rather I think its the other way around. You can find several pics on the WKSA photo gallery under Black Belt Testing and Part 2 of the latest tourney.
  14. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Hi, Jayhawk.

    If you don't want to have to navigate to a website where no link was provided, nor to sift through the flash-driven photo gallery once you're there, in order to get a glimpse of the uniform that Hyeongsa mentioned, you can always look right here at this post (provided you're logged into MAP).

    I had sent the pic to Hyeongsa for him to upload, but I guess he didn't feel like doing it. :dunno:

    As for who copied who, does it really matter? Besides, purple≠black as far as I'm concerned. A better question to ask is WHY, after all these years of always wearing a gold dobok (and there have been several), did the man finally decide to go with a black one, with just a smidgeon of gold decorations?

    GM In Hyuk Suh's NEW uniform

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 14, 2010


    Looks good !
  16. Hyeongsa

    Hyeongsa The Duelist

    The uniform looks interesting. I think the brown is a bit much. It should be gold to match the dragons and the pants should be a tad wider and the dragons a tad smaller. Other than that, I like the black look. Not bad!

    Eh, not worth my time. Byung In Lee isn't copying In Hyuk Suh. BIL has a new uniform, and suddenly so does IHS. Strange coincidence.
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2010
  17. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    Why couldn't you just say IHS is sporting a new look instead of trying to start trouble with all this "mirrors" (post #132) and "copying" (post #136) insults?

    FWIW, in your effort to avoid personal attacks, what ended up happening was a long rambling of nonsense.

    Its simple really. You said you haven't seen the new look so I pointed you in the right direction...and instead of posting 1 pic...I noted where you could see multiple pics...from the front, sides and back.
  18. Hyeongsa

    Hyeongsa The Duelist

    It was a tad rambling, wasn't it? LMAO

    I suppose your right. You are always right. Byung In Lee is copying In Hyuk Suh. So is everyone else out there.
  19. Ki_Power

    Ki_Power Banned Banned

    Black is cool!
  20. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    Good Guy's Wear Black! :cool:

    Nice to see the disobedient step children are back! :hat:

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