GM Cano Canete and Latigo and "Just Curious" [merged thread]

Powerman

Hi All,

Can I just state that *I* don't know who powerman is either!

>I'm beginning to think I was an utter moron for thinking I could help make this place into a peaceable meeting ground for FMA practitioners<

No, Stuart, I don't think you should view yourself like this. Your imput has been very helpful. Please keep on Modding! Oh, and meditation helps with high blood pressure..Oohm...;-)

Bill

 

Good intentions...

I'm not sure whether Bill Lowery intended his post to whip the rest of the forum into such a frenzy. But surely he must have realized that there would be a backlash to his original post, particularly since Pat is GM Cañete's SME representative in Europe.

***

Pat's position - that Bill's level of training does not legitimize either his right to a teaching certificate or the right to teach, and Bill's position - that his teaching certificate legitimizes both his level of training and his right to teach, are incommensurate with each other, because they start with different, albeit deliberate, premises.

On the theory that a picture is worth a thousand words, and that therefore a video is worth a million words, might we dispense with words for a while and see a YouTube clip that represents Bill's latigo curriculum?

And let's not repeat the same discussion on the YouTube "comments" forum if Bill decides to post a clip. Following is a post that I made on MartialTalk not long ago in response to someone who asked why people put other people's arts down. Let me be clear about the fact that my comments below are NOT intended to refer negatively to Pat or Bill, but rather to any others who, for whatever reason, decide to put their dog into the fight:

My response:

Now, I realize that some of what I've said above will only be considered more fuel for the fire, but my advice is to resist the temptation to take yet another crack at someone and let sleeping dogs lay.

Looking forward to the YouTube clip.

Best,

Steve

 

The realpoint here is not whether Bill is or is not qualified or whether he has the right to structure a syllabus for a sub system of SME, it is comments like this:

Considering Bill has spent but 3 weeks training in one section of the system he has no right to pass comments such as this, bearing in mind that some people he is refering to have spent a far far greater time studying and promoting the SME system, now whether they decide to structure a syllabus from their training is up to them and their choice and if it makes it easier for the to teach what they have learnt then that is all good, after all is that not what Bill is doing?

Now Bill could well have approached this subject in a more non politcal manner, he could have told us of his trip to the PI and his oppertunity to train with one of the greats such as GM Kano/Cano and how he was honoured to be presented with his rank and asked to undertake certain items without critisising others who have spent far longer promoting SME.

Now if he had any sense he would have contacted all those connected with SME in any way and looked to work with them for the betterment of the SME as a whole, but instead he comes on to a public form and proceeds to critise fellow SME practioners and is then surprised when critisism is cast back at him.

Quite honestly if Bill came on with a more open approach and looked to work with other SME practioners for the betterment of the system he would have found a more favorable response, hell I would have worked with him as my knowledge of the whip within SME is very limited as I am sure his knowledge of the Espada 'Y' Daga, Long stick and spear is very limited, then we could well have shared info, but when I see someone immediately critisising other fellow SME practioners (no matter how much knowledge they have attained) after only one trip and 3 weeks of limted training, this imediately tells me and others that he has another agenda in mind and not the real promotion of SME as a whole.

Now as for me using the logo of GM Casio, first check the much pubicised pictorial evidence of this logo, all to often you will also see GM Kano/Cano wearing this logo too and as you so aptly point out their is only one very faded logo on a membership card, but as GM Casio is not only a good freind of the son and heir but also a long term student of GM Momoy and training partner of GM Kano/Cano a good copy of a logo is better than no logo at all, also if we really wanted to be picky about the logo then the 'Original' Logo for SME is infact the 'Original Logo used for Doce Pares as a whole, and yes I use this logo too as does GM Kano/Cano and many of the other masters in the SME group.

Also Bill, you mention that you are waiting for certain items from the SMEC, now the SMEC is GM Casio and I happen to be using his logo so surely you would if you are working with the SMEC be using this logo too. If you want a copy then all you have to do is ask.

Bluntly speaking, do not critisise other SME practioners for their lack of training when you yourself have a lack of training in the system as after all they are all trying to do the same thing, keep alive the memory or GM Momoy Canete, a person who never got involved in politics even when Doce Pares and Balintawak were at loggerheads, GM Momoy and the SME group stayed neuteral, Maybe that is something you need to think about.

Best regards

Pat

 

The real point...

Thanks, Pat. The quote above, and your comments following the quote, make the issue clearer (and perhaps make it easier for Bill to respond). I did not mean to misrepresent your positon, and stand corrected.

There are now several organizations promoting San Miguel Eskrima in the Philippines, U.K. and U.S.A., including those run by Edring Casio, Kano Canete, Fredrico Mendoza, and their representatives, including Ramon Rubia, Anton St'James, Pat O'Malley, etc. In addition there are a few that fall outside the Doce Pares fold, such as Tom Bisio, Panto Flores, and Albert Dacayana, etc. My apologies to any that I've missed, inadvertedly.

One thing is for sure: each organization has its own interpretaton of Momoy's art and each interpretation is not in-and-of-itself the "whole story" - both because different individuals studied with Momoy at different times and because Momoy's art was constantly changing. In addition, everyone puts their own personal stamp on what they are doing, modifies what they have learned (if only because of temperment, body type, other martial arts experiences, etc.) and teaches differently to different individuals.

The inference to be drawn is that we can all potentially learn something from each other if we are all willing to respect each other. I know it sounds a little trite - but the alternative is to let forum discussion about San Miguel Eskrima sound like something you'd hear on just about every other forum.

Best,

Steve

 

Excellent Steve. You have hit the nail on the head. This is exactly why I asked Bill if he would be working more closely with Pat. As an outsider, it seems perfectly logical to me.

Gumagalang

Peter

 

An interesting reply from you 'Powerman' and obviously this does suggest a high degree bitterness within the GDP group. Pity because I am sure that GM Guba deserves more respect than that.... i.e. students are a reflection of their teacher!!!

 

SM System

No not at all,i just stated a fact that at the seminar GM Guba performed San Miguel and nobody else did.Whats wrong with that?

I have watched the thread and all you guys are doing is picking at Bill,i asked why?Again whats wrong with that or am i wrong to question why the BCFMA Instructors are picking on him?
He went and traiined with these guys and they authorised him to teach.You should have given him some time to get his act together.Maybe he was to quick to announce it on a forum like this??

Thanks

 

Could this perhaps be Ermar or Keith?

Read the thread very carefully...not just what you want to read. Firstly, Bill announced that he had been authorised by GM Kano and went on to state that other people claim to represent San Miguel. Bill makes claims of having the Original system (Latigo sub-system). That is rather political isn't it, especially when Bill has only trained for 3 weeks.

Please explain what you mean by BCKEAI members 'picking' on Bill? You state that there is nothing wrong with you asking questions and yet contradict this freedom of speech by stating that Pat and myself (BCKEAI Members) are somehow 'picking' on Bill. Pat is a BIG BOY and can answer for himself. My own questions have been:

1. As Pat is fully authorised by GM Kano to represent San Miguel in Europe, will Bill be working with him more closely? This is an important point, as it would demonstrate unity within the San Miguel system wouldn't it?
2. How can a 1st Degree instructor with only 3 weeks of training even consider writing a syllabus to 5th Degree? Read this one very carefully, Powerman...I am actually trying to protect the reputation of Bill and the integrity of Doce Pares / San Miguel here.

I do not believe in any way, shape or form that these questions, which remain unanswered, are picking on Bill. I would admit that my sense of humour has taken over in parts, but this thread deserves a little light-hearted fun!

Concerning the GM Diony Canete seminar, which I believe was organised by Pat, I understand that GM Guba was certainly not the only person present that knows and is capable of performing the San Miguel form. Funny how perceptions get twisted...when GM Guba was still part of the BCKEAI, I saw him and Pat working on the San Miguel form. I think that it is fair to say that BOTH know it. That would be a less political and more accurate assessment!

Peter

 

Hi Powerman,
I was going to ignore your obvious political statements but you made a point regarding the San Miguel form which is actualy from the Doce Pares Original Multi Style Curriculum based on the numerous forms from GM Momoy Canete. This particular form is NOT taught as part of the SME system.

Now you say GM Danny was the only one to perform this at the seminar is an absolute lie. If you paid attention an actualy took part you will have seen that GM Danny was at the front of the hall I was at the back, my wife was to the left and Shelley Coombe was to the right of the hall.

We were possitioned there by GM Dionisio so when the other participants turned at each point they could follow one of us during the 790 plus moves.

When GM Danny later performed the form stationary in one direction he also had beside him a 14 year old handicapt boy performing the form next to him, this lad is one of my students and he also trained with GM Dionisio at the WHQ in Cebu just before winning his worl forms title in 2004.

So if you going to make comments, stick to the truth eh! Or you can simply look at the video footage again, oh can I have a copy please.

Best regards

Pat

 

Excuse me while I fall off the seat laughing. That is absolutely priceless. Not only has Powerman been extending the truth somewhat, but he is questioning the practices and integrity of GM Diony Canete and the accuracy of video footage.

All Power to you, Powerman! This has to be one of the all-time classics. It beats my Whippy puns with ease.

 

And just to make things a little clearer for Bill and others especialy with Bill asking if their will be Rapid Arnis Latigo?

Well to answer the latigo point first. I have clearly stated that I have limited knowledge in this area, mind you nothing that a couple of seasons wont cure eh! Also I have guys in my organisation that are dam good at latigo anyway. But no you will not see latigo in the RA sylabus, no need as they can learn it within SME if they want to.

Another point I would like to make is the fact that I teach Rapid Arnis, Doce Pares Original Multi Style and San Miguel Eskrima as seperate entities. I am authorised to grade Black Belts in Doce Pares Original Multi Style under it 5 year training program which takes you to Black Belt but I insist that all those who have completed the program test for their black belt at the WHQ, I can pass and authorise them myself but I choose not to.

Now as I said I also teach SME as a seperate system within the organisation as I feel that the members will best appreciate this wonderfull classical system in this way, also it is my own small contribution to the memory of GM Momoy Canete one of the original founders of the 1932 Doce Pares club. And if one of my members wishes to become an instructor in SME, guess what I do? I send them to the WHQ in Cebu to be tested.

All the instructors in my organisation will take around 5 years to become basic level instructors in any of the systems taught within the group. Those are the standards I set for my people and I am proud of all my Black Belts.

Best regards

Pat

 

There is a book , "Cebuano Eskrima" and on page 281 Appendix V "Modus Operandi" point 6 they refer to something very similar ...A new installed commissioner sending emails to people teaching already .......

I think when you make an announcement like that you know what is going to happen if you are using your common sense.....

 

Right I have just caught up - gees do you people not go out at the weekends, I can't believe how much has been written, but I did ask for opinions, my, what a can of worms that was.

I will avoid asking questions next time gulp gulp as it seems very dangerous to on a forum????.

Mano Mano I have no affiliation with anyone from this thread and I wouldn't call myself a keyboard warrior just because I remain annoymous, I haven't slated anyone and wouldn't, I just asked a small question and peoples views, a question I am sure anyone reading the thread would want to ask.

I like being annoymous, it means I won't get beaten up for having an opinion
plus it seems to cause paranoia - perhaps there is only ever 2 people on the map all with 18 different accounts all trying to get at you - hee hee hee

Eskrima Warrior

 

Sm

Yea i think your right man...
But one thing your sure of every time is the Peter & Pat show

 

Enough