What is your reaction when you see certain arts referred to as "Just a sport" e.g. Boxing Wrestling Muay Thai / Kickboxing Judo I'm talking primarily about full contact sports here i.e. you are expected to hit / throw / whatever is allowed as hard & fast as you can. I feel that "Just a sport" this does a great disservice to these fine systems, and I value their combat effectiveness more than many of the more "Street" arts out there. The value in these systems I feel is the fact that yes, in theory, the actual techniques used are often "less lethal" on paper (then again have you ever been chest to chest suplexed on tarmac?) but what they DO use they develop by live sparring with a person who is actually fighting back. The value increases tenfold when you start to mix up disciplines and try to apply your boxing skills against a wrestler or try to clinch & takedown a good Muay Thai fighter. What about modification of these "sport" techniques. Let's look at a finger jab to the eyes vs. a straight lead jab. Do you feel it is it possible to gain a high level of practical skill in spearing someone in the eye without first having the footwork, timing, sense of distance etc to land a solid jab to the nose in an alive i.e. "Sporting" environment? I know you can wear eye protection and spar "alive" using the eye jab. but how many do? If you cannot hit me with a 16oz glove whilst I'm trying to punch your head off, what makes you think will be able to poke me in the eye when I can also hit you with a chair, there are 2 or 3 of us, or you are wearing winter clothing & there's snow on the ground? How long do you think it would take to teach an "eye boink expert" who's never sparred to land his eye poke against an aggressive, athletic, ****ed off aggressor? Turn it around and think how long it would take to give practical eye jabbing skills to a decent club level boxer who can land his jab with a good percentage of success against people trying to take his head off his shoulders? I've tried the later? It takes about 20 minutes. "Open your hand, you don't have a glove on. Right, now use your fingers to the eye instead of punching the nose? Right, let's put on the eye goggles & try that in the ring" That's about all it takes. OK. I've lit the touch paper, Now I'm gonna sit here with my popcorn & fire extinguisher
I think the fighting sports are one of the best ways to learn to fight. It may stylise your technique and influence how you react on the street and it may save your life. But it is not suited for everyone, some people I've sparred with just cant stop bullying weaker members of the club and I think this is not good especially for the confidence of the weaker fighters. However I believe instinct can see you through I believe there are some people whom have never fought in their life but could possibly beat a well trained fighter in the street. My motto is "I can beat anybody, anybody can beat me". Just a quick question. Are boxers paranoid about wrists injuries when on the street without gloves on?
Actually I've seen much more "bullying" in non sparing classes - Probably because the bully has an easy job inflicting his inflated ego on people without fear of getting whacked back.
I guess the arts that get referred to as sports, are those that compete under fixed rule systems, therefore they are sports! I've laid out my thoughts on this elswhere on forum, but I agree with Dave that you cannot dismiss the sporting combative systems just because they compete. The nature of competition being, that it keeps standards high. In sport MA, the techniques have been modified to make them safe to compete with, but there are possibly fewer people now who understand how to transfer their ringcraft into more realistic arenas? My 2 Banana's worth. I like this err, 'exotic' question Dave; "If you cannot hit me with a 16oz glove whilst I'm trying to punch your head off, what makes you think will be able to poke me in the eye when I can also hit you with a chair, there are 2 or 3 of us, or you are wearing winter clothing & there's snow on the ground?" Personally, I'll find it easier to hit you without the weight of the Glove, and yes, this is something I have specifically trained. I 'know' I can hit you, because my version is a modified tournament technique, and I've trained it and tested it against heavy fire. 'Knowing' I can hit you is the important bit! Could a highly trained yet un-tested eye boink exponent catch me with same??? Nope, not unless I was sleeping.
Re: More Sport Vs "Street" I'll tell you how I feel. I think if people want to call make them a sport, they should go right ahead. I won't object. Heck, people make sport of just about everything these days. Not only the ones you listed up there, but also, with karate, taekwando, etc. However, it is much more than just a sport. It has much more to offer than just a sport. It is not just a sport, wasn't to begin with, and will never be just a sport. I totally agree Yoda, "just a sport is " This is a disgrace to the martial arts. It is much more than a sport as we all know. I do hope these people recognize this All in all, I don't have a problem with people making anything into a sport, however, when they refer to a certain style as just a sport, then I may be offended because it can't be just a sport unless it was created in the begining to be such, and none of these were originally ment to be just sports. They are so much more.
I just let them talk, actions speak louder then words and sooner or later you'll get your chance to prove to those people that Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Judo, Wrestling etc. are more then just sports.
I agree with YODA. I mean a lot of arts (without getting into names) are really fancy and have things like wrist locks, eye gouges, cavity strikes, and clavicle pulls, but how easy do you think it would be to land any of those on an opponent (especially when your a begginer). I think arts that deal in a lot of complex precise movements like this act better as a compliment to other fighting systems which also cover more basic techniques. Pretty the same idea that YODA gave with eye gouges and boxing.
Thanks for the input MAPers. I don't get at all cross when people refer to these thibngs as sports. They ARE sports - and that is a strong point not a weakness. "Sport" means they are contested, trained against non-complience - actually performed rather than just trained - There is a world of difference.
My reaction ? I think to myself how they'd feel if I hit them as hard as I could bare knuckled, or took them down to the ground and pounded the **** out of them. I agree with the point made about the eye jab. It's very easy for someone to say 'I'll just jab them in the eye' when they have no training, but it's highly unlikely they'll pull it off if they can't punch someone. For someone who knows how to use their fists, I think they could pull of an eye jab without practicing it. Just change your fist, the hard part is really in extending your fist and not telegraphing the strike.
For the eye jab part I wouldn't actually use it in a fight until we were grappling and only if it was my only way out (people are rather sensitive about loosing their eye sight). I think that the full contact nature of combat sports is good and inmproves people as fighters but the rules have made for some very silly practises. Take boxing - no hitting to the back or back of the head. This allows people to come in hunched over, exposing most of thier body. No kicking, elbows and knees again makes for bad habits towards not protecting from these areas. Boxing I feel is the worst for rules that breed bad habits but all the sports will get some of this becuase they do have those rules. The ring is just too small I think. A mat the size of the UFC Octagon provides enough room to move around properly. Also I think the gloves would be a hindrance in a fight rather than a plus. The fingerless UFC gloves would provide enough protection from injury as they need. I think that sports, all sports are a good way to take yourself beyond your limits but most people take them far too seriously.
A boxer is probably one of the worst people to fight for real too - strange that. Just goes to show the importance of training methods over technique.
Sport can be a great advantage. We can all do it, doesn't matter in the slightest what our martial art is. All it means is we've applied a set of rules to our sparring. Apply one set of rules and your wrestling another set and your boxing. What it means for us MA's is we can spar/fight hard knowing the rules will limit risk of injury. Its better to perfect the use of a jab against a resisting opponent than to learn the theory of an eye jab. The technique on paper may be less effective, but what we learn is timing, speed and how to apply it effectively against an attacking person. Something many MA's never do with their "lethal techniques". As Yoda said, in theory the rules boxers train with would in theory make them the worst fighters. But it doesn't, far from it! Because they train so hard at what they do it makes them very lethal punchers and also hard to hit. And if a boxer is in a street fight, don’t expect them to fight in their “sport” way, they’ll break every rule that boxing has! Ok, they won’t be good grapplers if they don’t grapple, but this might not matter if they get a knockout punch in within the first few seconds. They might not grapple but they will fight dirty, I believe its far easier to take a boxers jab and teach the eye jab, than the other way round. Because they have learnt the most important thing from their “sport” training, which is learning to fight an attacking opponent.
Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for boxing, but I do think it has some dangerous limitations. The first that comes to mind is the bad habits that develop due to punching with big padded gloves on. Boxing gloves are very forgiving if you don't get the angle of your wrist at impact correct. Wrists and hands damage fairly easily. A good example is Mike Tyson, I believe he broke his hand punching someone without gloves on. For this reason I avoid wearing any padding/protection on my hands when doing bagwork. But that said, I think boxing has still got a lot going for it. Mike
I've known a lot of martial artists to break their knuckles. Many people don't realise how easy it is to do; as their pounding away on bags concentrating on power. But, its dangerous for both parties, the boxer breaking there hand and the person whose face has broke it!
Quote: "Boxing gloves are very forgiving if you don't get the angle of your wrist at impact correct." Spot on, I find for that reason i can punch harder with gloves on
sport has it's place...sport sparring can only help u with learning the distance, timing part of ur style..it will help u with trying out new techniques... in street u can't do any of above... -TkdWarrior-
Why don't you do that in the street TKD??? I thought you'd do everything you do in the sport sparring, but add the street techniques such as eye jab on to it. Aren't distance and timing important in the street? I agree with you about the gloves Doc. they can be a bad thing to train with, giving you too much confidence that you can put punches in at all angles and your knucles & wrist will take it
read again pgm i said <sport sparring can only help u with learning the distance> u don't hav time to learn anything in street u just hav to do it... u don't hav time to practice timing in street it should come natural "Boxing gloves are very forgiving if you don't get the angle of your wrist at impact correct." yup it's good reason for me not to use gloves n our gloves r way lighter than boxing gloves -TkdWarrior-
I would nt say dont use gloves when training on the heavy bag. I train a lot with the heavy bag and one of my exercises is After 3min shadow boxing followed by 3x mins - no gloves 30 secs break 3 x mins - light bag mitts 30 secs break 3 x mins - 16oz gloves 30 secs break 3 x mins - light bag mitts 30 sec break 3x mins - no gloves or alternatively start with 16oz gloves to no gloves back to 16oz gloves.
