[Freestyle/Sporting MA] From Ring to Street!

Yeah, like everyone here trains all the time right?

Can I just point out the first post of the thread to you folks!

Everyone seems to be taking the last question a little too literally, when I'm actually on about something a little different.

Nor am I talking about bloody sparring either.

Might as well talk to myself

 

In fact.......that flippin does it........yer all gettin a bloomin article on this very subject!

Gnash! gnash! grind! gnash!

 

<Thump....thump.....thump.....

Sound of my forehead hitting wall!>

sounds like just not ur day andy...
-TkdWarrior-

 

uh oh...

I see another rant coming...

You're trying to say that tournaments offer some benefits which translate well into fighting outside those restrictions that aren't gained through normal sparring right?

Now there are some things there, facing an unknown opponent, adrenal rush, etc.

But I think that the nature of the rules puts it so far away from what it would be like otherwise it has become a seperate sport.

Does baseball competition prepare you for hockey competition, in some ways yes. It teaches you how to hit things hard with a stick, how to deal with the pressure of competition, etc. But it is a different sport. Why compete in baseball if you want to train in hockey?

Competition can be good, but I don't like point fighting, the rules tend to build bad habits and teach incorrect strategy. Imagine a olympic style TKDist using TKD strategy and tactics in a MMA competition, they'd get killed. The conditioning would be of benefit, but they'd be on there back as soon as they through the first high kick.

So is TKD competition beneficial to MMA, in some ways yes, in others its counter productive as it teaches you to do things which you really shouldn't do.

 

Oh!!!! I am all blown up!!! could'nt agree more with Andrew.

Besides Andy, why r u thumping ur head? Did I say something wrong........? If I am please lemme know.......

|Cain|

 

This is the crux of what I am getting at. Assume for a moment that I'm not a complete idiot if you will. I agree completely, training TKD does not prepare you for MMA, yet training TKD has benefits, as does anything in some way shape or form.

I'm saying absorb what is useful, discard what is clearly old knickers.

Why is that the same people who jumped on Jimmy for being close-minded about sparring, are now so fixed in their opinion, when they largely seem to be talking about something which is outside theire field of experience???

*Bah*

P.S. Nope TKDwarrior, not getting at you mate.

 

hmm andy u gave me different prespective to think about cuz u included the good old TKD trick

I agree completely, training TKD does not prepare you for MMA, yet training TKD has benefits, as does anything in some way shape or form.
i agree with u here...if u only train TKD u'll never fight a grappler... u hav to go above the style...

P.S. Nope TKDwarrior, not getting at you mate.
u mean did it offended me?? nah...i hav grown up u see ...i don't mind ppl bashing TKD cuz i know the reasons(observed myself too) i know it's sad but true...still there'll be ppl like me who'll not let this art die disgracefully...

-TkdWarrior-

 

This is my point - you don't need one way of training, be it competition/sparrring/mitts/shields or other you need them all to be able to play all arenas/all areas/all levels But if you don't train, in a particular one of those above, doesn't make you inaffective necessarily, you're just not as experienced as someone else might be in that particular skill.

To get back to the original post -"what do you get from competing" - one you get an experience of adrenalin, to a certain extent, you get learn how to handle an unco-operative opponant, it'll give you sharper reflexes than something/moves that are rehersed(although i think rehersal gives an automatic responce and can be just as effective.)

tournament tactics- "do they translate" - not without some adjustment, that depends on what type of tournament you train for and what sort of situation you face in the street.

I have the highest respect for any athelete who get to the top of their field including MA's; however it still doesn't mean that someone who isn't at the top of a competitive field doesn't deserve respect and curtainly doesn't mean they(MA's) can't defend themselves effectively.

What do you get from Kata compared to the mat - I can't speak for other arts, but patterns i have done are there only to practice stringing combinations together and for cardio vascular and are used as a precursor to working on other pieces of equipment including sparring etc. On the mat close range you get to know responses, the opponants and you own, what will work for you and what won't etc etc etc

 

wat they mean when they say
sparring is good ..they mean i do lots of sparring
lol...
competition is useless...they mean i never won
lolol...
ok ok kidding here...

from my understanding sparring is basically for those ppl who are into serious MA things, for self defense u need little sparring just for understanding distance, timing etc etc...when u do self defense u r not expecting bruce lee against urself, so the tactics normally got changed as opposed to sparring...

My brother doesn't like MA but i hav gave him enuff so that he can defend himself n the training was like 30 minutes of live training about distance, power, timing etc...for 6 months...i hav made his mind/psychic so tough that he can take some punches n give some good punches... n every now n then i just check him if he forgot anything or not...or just live sparring(sorta) where he can utilize all his techniques like he would react in against any real oppnt...
so if u r trying to learn Martial arts then sparring is a tool too...just like stance training or forms or pad words or conditionings...
doh this thread got misguided thnx to u morpheus
ok i'll try to put this thread on line...
well tournaments teaches some bad habbits like kicking above waist, mostly 1-2-3 movements, some bad switches ...but the good thing is that u can get live oppnt, n u can utilise ur new learnt technique without getting killed(that can be said about sparring) but does this make u street champion? i guess not...
there's Everest to climb...
but i hav seen ppl of all kinds...anyways if one is happy with winning championship i hav no probs with that...
PS: morpheus i was kiddin up there
-TkdWarrior-

 

Oh!!! nice post, anyways I really hate to hijack threads.....sorry about that Andy, I apogolise if I was wrong in any way or if ya suffered because of ur head thumping Good for conditioning u know.....even shaolin monks do that

And yes Tkdwarrior I am trying to be Bruce Lee myself......maybe better than him......dunno if I can do that but wat I luved most about him was his passion for the arts.

|Cain|

 

If I must

Right, but there comes a point when the effort is not worth the benefits. When the negatives outweigh the positives.

Point fighting HAS benefits, I can't deny that. So does many other things that I see no reason to do.

I would like to differentiate between point fighting and sparring.

I've done the point sparring, gotten the trophies and looking back I think my efforts would have best been directed in other ways.

Point fighting as it stands I see little value in towards my current training goals, but sparring is very important towards those goals.

So after competing and judging in many point fighting competitions I can say that that sort of training is far less productive towards my goals then other sorts of training and may even be counter productive because of thetactics used.

Is point fighting better then nothing? probably, is it a good training tool? I don't think so.

 

Are'nt point fighting and sparring the same thing? except that u fight for points and see opponents u hv never seen before.....big burly and lotsa hair on their forearms.....u see.....oh ok u see my point? For me the two are the same except that u fight for points....

[Geez!!!! Now everyone will come down heavily on me I bet ]

*Cain hides underground and waits until ppl forgive him*



Just my views....also I m half - asleep rite now....

|Cain|

 

No, sparring can mean many things. If you where to watch a boxer, a thai fighter, a wrestler, a MMA fighter and a point fighter spar you would see very different tactics used.

Andrew

 

But when we are point sparring are'nt we 'sparring'?

.....umm........wait a min........in ur view is the contact same in sparring and point fighting? In my view it is......or at least that's wat I am familiar with......

|Cain|

 

There are many different types of 'point' fighting. It's the reason I posted a fairly extensive explanation of the system I was referring to on this very thread if you read back.

To Cain-Charlie and TKDWarrior, I understand that you guys refer to Tournament competition as sparring, in fact I have competed by invitation in TKD ITF style tournaments, both in point stop, and continuous sparring. The sparring I believe AG is referring to is akin to what the Non-TKD population practice, or is indeed a derivative of it.

AG, I'll come back to your points shortly, as I only have a mo!

 

Oh ok waiting for u.....by that time call me Cain Oh man I wish I could remove charlie......

|Cain|

 

To Andrew Green;

In reply;

1/

Absolutely.

2/

Bear in mind I'm talking past-tense here Andrew. I stopped competing in 1996. I have the benefits, and I've moved on.

3/

As would I.

4/

You speak here retrospectively. You wouldn't be saying this if you had never had the experience. Do you now spend your time to maximum efficiency?

5/

I feel the same.

6/

That depends on what your goals are, and only you know that. My own reference, as stated several times already is to the past, yet no one has asked me what I feel I actually gained from my experience, merely picked holes with the topic (as usual).

7/

I have never said for one second, that everyone should do point sparring, or sugested it was a good training tool. In fact I wouldn't even have this depth of feeling on the subject, had it not been for my own personal experiences derived from it.

*On a side note, the only instance I know of, where a Martial Artist actually killed someone was in the UK. It wasn't on the mat, but 'on the street'. The shot was a single roundhouse kick to the head. He was lucky to escape manslaughter charges, and I believe a verdict of accidental death was given. The MArtist was a well known points fighter in the 80's, early 90's. I suppose it must have been an accident, after all, all his years of point fighting must have taught him to pull the technique or miss right???

 

So the question for you is do you encourage your students to participate in this sort of training? Do you direct there training towards it?

No, off course not. There is always a better way, when I find it I'll switch.

I agree, goals are important to how you train. For some winning trophies is the goal, for them point fighting should be the goal. I know I've gained some things from point fighting, but I don't think it was enough to continue on that path, or to have my students pursue it.

I'm pretty sure I know what you are trying to say, and I agree. But at the same time I don't think point fighting is beneficial enough to justify doing it for the goal of "real" fighting.

Perhaps it's just the way the initial question was asked that all this came about. You asked about point fighting translating to street fighting. But I think you wanted to know what aid it has given to people, not whether it is worth it on the whole.

I've heard of a few competition deaths, and they;ve been things that would be very hard to repeat.

"pull the technique or miss": I don't think that is the problem with point fighting. Full contact fighters don't spar full contact all the time, but have no problem doing so when necessary. For me its the strategy and techniques that get used.
Andrew

 

1/

Hi AG, actually, I retired from teaching this year to pursue my own studies. ( A long story)

2/

Me too.

3/

Nor do I

4/

I have never once suggested that.

5/

Sorry, but no. This thread was posted in the "Sporting Martial Arts" Forum, and was intended to be of interest to members who are involved in this ( see reply by 'Cyclone' ). As usual, people with different codes, have been a little to self absorbed to allow others freedom to open discussion.

6/

Never nice to hear of, bt sadly the Amateur ranks of any sport incurr tragedy.

7/

Ah, something positive on control then?

Andy

 

if u hav watched "karate Kid" where daniel san was fighting is tournament that tourney was point fighting... where fight stops when u score a point...
but in India these kind of sparring doesn't exists(mostly do continous sparring)where u hav chance to attack/counter/etcetc...
BTW whenever i refered sparring i refered it as competition sparring/full contact/ or semi contact so that other ppl can understand...all r form of continous sparring
-TkdWarrior-