Just a quick heads up for a very interesting post on the Dog Brother forum about the actual extent that Western Boxing was influenced by Filipino systems. Did Filipino Martial Arts Revolutionize Boxing? In my opinion the best thought out posting is written by Krishna Godhania so make sure you read down that far! Anyone trained with Krishna? Dred P.S. By the way not sure but I thought this would be of interest to the FMA forum too but will let a moderator cross-post if they agree?
Hi Dred I'm familiar with this story - some people buy it - others don't. My mind isn't fully made up yet. As for Krishna - he's a good friend of mine and had been for the last 10 years or so. By the way - you do know who thsi author, Lilia I. Howe is I presume? Dan Inosanto's sister?
I heard this story directly from Guro Inasanto, and like Yoda, my mind isn't completely made up. The Phillipines are such a melting pot culture that it does make sense. Unfortunately, I haven't heard many people outside of the Inasanto camp talk about this. - Matt
'By the beginning of the 20th century, Western boxing was both a sport and an art form. Fighters would generally chamber their hands in a straight-up position; fists pointed upward covering the face, elbows tucked into the body, the fighter would drive his blows in an "uppercut" into the body of his opponent Old pictures of such greats as John L. Sullivan depict this fighting stance. Fights consisted mainly of "exchanging blows." One fighter would strike the other, then the other would hit back, and this process would go until one fighter lost consciousness or was too hurt to continue. ' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The above paragraphs show absolutely no knowledge about the origins, practitioners or development of Olde English Boxing prior to the late 1890's/ early 1900s. Quoting stuff about Boxing circa John L. Sullivan and quoting 'There was no blocking in English Boxing' is absolute and utter Nonsense. The Olde English fight was well known for it's Defensive tactics, footwork, Blocking, warding, stop-hits, interception and the like. Prior to the advent of the Queensbury Rules, Boxing went thru two previous Rule Changes, those being 'The London Prize Ring Rules' (1838) and 'The Broughton Rules' (1743). The Broughton Rules curtailed the kicking, striking etc of Downed opponents and prohibited grappling attacks below the waist. Both sets of Rules allowed for Wrestling, the Favourite Boxers throw being the Cross-Buttocks. How could boxers in the 17th, 18th and 19th Century prior to the Queensbury Rules possibly hope to deal with punches, purring kicks, Grappling attacks and throws without the use of footwork? The notion that they were just big lumps who stood there and knocked the tar out of each other is total Anal Leakage. Many Great Historical Boxers such as Daniel Mendoza (12 Stone, Five Feet Seven, who held the British Heavyweight title from 1791 until 1795) were renowned for their stunning footwork and 'voiding' blows, bobbing and weaving etc. There were many others who also adopted this style of movement. Because Mendoza was much smaller than his opponents he adopted brilliant footwork, fast parrying, combination punching from the angles and stop-hits (All of which were there in Olde English Boxing) to compensate for his lack of size when giving away as much as three or four stone in weight to most opponents. Also English 'Boxing' is based very closely on The Ancient English Fight (Fencing), which very much stressed the True Fight: Passing, Warding, Positional Dominance, Constant Movement and 'The True Place'-where you could strike, cut etc your opponent but he could not hit you. Just read George Silvers Paradoxes of Defence (1599) to understand how the weapons art influenced the unarmed. Or English Martial Arts by Terry Brown (Anglo-Saxon books) Review Here: http://www.martialartsadvice.com/cat.php?cat=4 Better yet read 'Master Of Defence' (The works of George Silver) by Paul Wagner (paladin press). Which will be reviewed on my website shortly and is excellent. Whilst there were and are many fine Filipino boxers who added their own style to the modern development of modern boxing, to suggest that they invented something that had been already historically common a couple of centuries previously lacks any credibility. Next they'll be saying that Filipino Sword Arts were already like that before the arrival of Spanish Military Tactics. Oh, sorry they do! LOL. The Moral of the story is: 'Don't re-invent history to suit your own agenda'. 'And, do your Research before Chopsing!'. Thank God that some of the people on that forum knew what they were talking about! Some damn good posts.
The early British boxers certainly recognised the importance of weapons training which improved their footwork, slipping & pugilistic skills..... Just like the FMA masters do today! Captain Godfrey wrote in 1747 'after having stopped the Blow with his left Arm, which is a Kind of Buckler to him' He also spoke of the champion boxer BROUGHTON... 'He fights the Stick as well as most Men, and understands a good deal of the Small-Sword. This Practice has given him the Distinction of Time and Measure beyond the rest'. In one of Figgs/Sutton's 'boxing' contest, the first bout was with broadsword, nothing of note happened for half an hour. Then Sutton forced Figg back and the Master was gashed on his arm by his own sword. This apparently did not count. In the sixth round Sutton was cut on the shoulder, which was enough to give Figg the first victory. Bout 2, The fist-fighting began. For eight minutes they sparred, and then Sutton threw Figg at the umpire's feet. The crowd roared its approval, but Figg threw Sutton heavily on to his back and the challenger was given time to recover. A punch to the chest hurt Figg badly and he fell off the stage, but two or three members of the audience pushed him back. They took a 15-minute rest for some reason, when the contest resumed, Figg gradually got on top and then knocked Sutton down with a punch to the chest. Figg jumped on him and pinned him down until he submitted. We are told he said: `Enough indeed. You are a brave fellow and my master.' In the third and final bout, Figg completed his day's work by breaking Sutton's knee with the cudgel. Filipino stickfighters/boxers obviously came to the same conclusions as the earlier weapon-using pugilists of the Uk & Ireland although FMA should probably get the credit for 're-discovering' this concept in modern boxing. Louie
Like many people training in the Inosanto lineage the stories about how filipino's influenced western boxing are among those that I have heard from various instructors (including Guro I at his seminars). At first I took this as gospel until I started reading more about English Martial Arts. Now like the rest of you I am in two minds. At the very least I think that the term "revolutionize" is too strong. The fact that boxing is now a global sport to me indicates that there is likely to have been some cross-pollenization from different cultures and figting arts. Similarly the changes in "rule sets" over the years have altered boxing completely. The reason that I posted the link to the discussion on the dog bros site is because I though that Krishna Godhania's articles was among the best researched that I'd come across and, considering his background in the FMAs, the least slanted toward the Filipino influence. I also noticed that there is an article in this month's MAI about the origins of Boxing. To my mind poorly researched, written and of doubtful use to anyone. Started fairly well but I'm still at a total loss as to the point of this article. Very disappointing and a real shame as it could have been very interesting. Another interesting information source was a Channel 4 series called The Georgian Underworld which screened last year sometime. One show was about bare-knuckle boxing (specifically about Bill "The Black Terror" Richmond) and very interesting indeed - especially the scenes recreating fighters training. You could see the influence of the stick/sword arts... one block/deflection with the lead hand in particular reminded me of a combination of a roof block with a bong sau which then lead into a back hand (badly described... sorry.. Monday morning pre-coffee). One of the commentators on the show was Terry Brown so I'm not too surprised about this as he probably choreographed the scenes. Anyway interesting food for thought!
I think FMA may have some influence in western boxing but so did other styles, IMHO. I'd like to see more interviews and info before I believe that FMA was a major influence in boxing.
I don't think that FMA had any influence on Western boxing. FMA has no influence on the western boxing here in the Philippines. No connection at all either in terms of techniques, strategy, history or personality. I do not know of any Filipino world class fighter or champion who has had connection in any way to fma. Who? Can anyone prove that Poncho Villa was fma? Maybe Ceferino Garcia got good "bolo" punch from cutting sugar cane (in Hawaii btw, not PHilippines), but is this fma connection? FMA techniques here without the sticks, looks like karate or kung fu not boxing. Hands open, ready to do shooto. Back hand punch from hip, like karate reverse punch. Very much twisting. Not like boxing all. Other styles, do much slapping - don't see how it can work against other men. To be honest, Filipino boxing teaching, not very good. Theat's why best boxers are sent to U.S. to learn realy technique and style.
I don't believe it in any way shape or form! English Boxing, like Western Fencing (which were often taught at the same Academies by the same people) constantly went through all sorts of fads, fashions and phases. At one point there wasn't much footwork simply because dancing about was not considered to be the manly thing to do - anyone who did so during this period was considered a coward. "Stand close, go home early" eh Yoda! As the argument ensued in civilian Fencing (especially civilian Fencing) as to which was the deadlier, the point or the edge, instructors who believed in the point then tried to apply the same principles to Boxing. Round-arm punches (hooks) were derided by people like Owen Swift, as being unscientific. He argued that the straight punch would always be more direct as, travelling in a straight line to its target, an opponent would not be able to reach you with a 'round-arm' punch. Oh yes, I once bought an Inosanto Academy t-shirt listing many fighting systems and their origins. According to whoever was responsible for that shirt, Boxing originated in... wait for it... America! Need I say more? Pugil
fma influencing modern boxing? of course not. if it did, there would be elbowing, fish hooking, eye-gouging, kneeing, biting, etc in the rules.
In the eyes of those not exposed or uneducated in FMA systems , yes it may be Kung fu like. You might be talking about Kung fu and karate practiced by Filipinos because my FMA emptyhands looks very much like western boxing with the add ons of elbows, guntings , scratching, fishooking etc the only difference is that we continue to fight with emptyhands as though you are still fighting with weapons. Your muscle memory is conditioned like weapons fighting, If you start to switch to emptyhand mode separate from what you always use then you will be slower than usual. True most FMA schools of thought do not quite train emptyhands as much as weaponry but seek them and you will find our emptyhands to be very different from Kung fu or karate like moves based on weaponry and knife fighting. You just have to look for them and if you're lucky , they may consider teaching you you just have to be very persistent. I have seen FMA emptyhands taught more often and in a very organized format elsewhere in the world. (only elsewhere in the world why loose the advantage of fighting without a weapon? ) Must be because the western mind requires a more formal way of doing things especially if it's a commercialized school but nonehteless it's still Filipino emptyhands originally taught by Filipinos and you can ask these brothers in the art if it looks anything like Karate and I'm sure majority will say no. As for the Filipino influence on wetern boxing.....nah! Tall stories from short men. We pinoys are fond of making "angkin" -owning other things. If we have the ingeniuty to translate weapons fighting to emptyhands, I'm sure we can come up with some way to manipulate and relate things that can't be fully proved or debunked! I am more in agreement with shootdogs statement!
There was up until the introduction of the Queensbury Rules.... Plus Purring (Kicking), Wrestling etc, all gradually reduced with each new set of Rules (From Broughtons to the London Prize ring Rules to the stated Marquis of Queensbury Rules)...
I am a student of FMA. More than 20 years. My teacher and I often go to Quezon Cirlce and Luneta to see other methods and see other teachers and friends. Also have many friends in Binondo who are Chinoy, so they prefer kung fu. I know difference. Maybe western boxing influenced your fma? Your trainer Filipino from province? or city Filipino who live overseas? Maybe they learn from foreigners too. many city arnis trainers here do karate, combat judo and boxing too. halo halo. (mixed together.) Why not, western culture influcence evertyhing else in our country. Filipinos don't even think we are oriental, instead we want to be American and white. I box too. My trainer teach me to throw elbow after hook to cut my opponent. When close I trained to rub my laces against around his eyes to soften skin. I know how to take hit to body and catch opponents elbows and twist. My trainer not kknow arnis. He learned from old black soldier from Subic.
Lemery, I too have been in the arts for the same if not a bit more of those years...good to know I'm not the oldest guy in this forum. I know where you are coming from but i also gesture not to say FMA emptyhans as a blanket coverall is like karate or kung fu - Though Kung fu is fluid like too. I'm from the south. Most of my instructors are from the province not city boys who have easy access to commercialized martial arts like karate do or Tae kwon do simply look at the way they do weapons compared to us, we are a bit more fluid so our emptyhands just as well. But you do have to choose your teachers , while there are a lot of Pinoy instructors with Karate , kung Fu backgrounds, there are also a lot who do Silat and kickboxing . I follow the emptyhands that flow more and relate more to weapons like Yaw Yan . For example ,the dumpag and pangamut of PTK is not karate like, I stay stay away from those that don't not because they are inferior but only becasue it is much slower in the ring. Interesting point you bring up about the West ifluencing our boxing. I'm not a Historian. All I know is this. All arts borrow from each other at some point. We are the gateway of trade in the orient. Many cultures have passed our Islands. A melting pot of sorts. leave it to us to learn somethng and make it our own...but with a definite Filipino twist that makes it unique. Just look at how we take songs from other countries and remix it to make it useable. One of my fondest memories of one of the great Past Manongs who is no longer with us, he would always say that we as Pinoys could take anything out there and make it work better by adding our own flavor to it. Flavor being our experiences with life the way it is back home...as survivalist. Please do not take his words as racist, it was meant for me at the time when I brought to him certain tecniques from other Martial Arts and had him show me his rendition or version . Instead of saying "we have that too' He would say...this is how I would do it. Why that way? Because of the knife.(he would smile and tap me with the knife that seemed to come out from nowhere) But this is not unique to our people...all other cultures must have gone through the same things. One Manong who was a merchant Marine had very very dirty tricks in fighting and he would say that he learned this from the countless of scuffles he either joined in or saw from other people in his travels and now uses it in his regiment and from local fights at the ghetto docks of Manila. So here is proof that he borrows and copies from others. So all in all, who influenced who? does it really matter? Bottom line is this is how we do it, that is how they do it. See the difference? See the similarities? Now enjoy the variety each distinct from the other.
the grand tuhon is a promdi. promdi bisayas! seriously though, there are similarities in fma and boxing, just like there are similarities in some japanese arts and some korean arts or some chinese arts and some japanese arts. there are only so many ways a body can move (unless we develope further and become double jointed) and "what works" will not stay a secret for too long. "what works" is a universal truth that no one has exclusive rights to. some people are just more attuned to this truth than others. what "filipinizes" anything is more "attitude" and "flow" and "pragmatism" than anything else. pinoys don't have the luxuries of other people. they simply don't have the time to study very complex things because they have to devote too much time to daily living and survival. pinoys will take "what works" and just use it.
Yeah me have been a closed door student of Krishna for the last 8 years www.functionalfighting.co.uk very interesting debate just on way out will come and read more !!! regards el diablo despacio aka Neil Jaynes
