This came up in a different thread, so I thought why not start a new one to discus this. How much physical work/exercise can you do before you impede your progress in taiji? Can a blacksmith/builder/navvy ever be a taiji 'master'?(*see below) Could a body builder ever do taiji? At what point does exercise or hard physical labour start to affect your ability? * for 'master' I mean someone who is pretty darn good at it. Not a 'pay me all your money and I will teach you to fly' master.
My view on this. I think that you should be able to lead a physical lifestyle, as long as you are not trying to force something. We are trying to reach a relaxed state, so if we are training ourselves excessively we can only impede our practice. But what about physical work? DIY, gardening, etc Should we refuse? 'Sorry, I can't do that, I'm cultivating softness.' I used to attend a gym, picked stuff up and put it down. Tried to stretch out properly at the end, but I was still 'impeding' my progress. I could not see it, but my teacher could. After I stopped going he said "good!" He did not tell me to stop, that decision was mine. I guess we need to find the right balance.
Good idea for a thread Vampyre Rat. Well, I think that the problem lies in repetitive weight lifting in the same position, that constantly stresses the same sets of muscles in the same pattern. I think what happens is these muscles get constantly tensed and worked they remain tensed even at rest. I used to weight lift a lot, and was constantly tense, your body feels strong and solid, which in a sense is what you’re trying to achieve in weight training, but this is counter productive to Tai Chi. However I think a hard manual labor job does not have the same effect. In fact I think it may even be of some benefit, as the movements are not set to a rigid standard and in fact, because your not intent on working a specific set of muscles while on the job, you instead try and minimize the strain on individual groups of muscles by using whole body power to some extent, which is in a sense similar to Tai Chi. I draw this conclusion from my own personal experience. When I used to weigh train and do Tai Chi, I found it a lot harder to feel the Qi, and relax in to postures. Also a lot of the time you end up, because of habit of using muscles, using overt muscular force in movements and blocking out what you should be doing due to tension, i.e. Qi and intent. I found that I did not have this problem after I quit weight training. Though, nowadays I find that after a lengthy game of football, or other sports that could be likened to hard manual labor, which does not involve the same repetitive strain on the same muscles as weight training, my feeling of Qi and intent actually grow stronger and at times appear completely spontaneously, without my will being involved. The above leads me to believe that muscular strain is only detrimental to Tai Chi if it consistently stresses the same muscles. Furthermore, I also think that strain on lower body and upper body affect your Tai Chi differently, I would guess that lower body strain could be more beneficial to a degree, whereas upper body strain more detrimental to a degree. But personally, I will stick to training my Tai Chi, with the occasional sports activity mixed in, as currently I don’t have much opportunity to pursue sports other than Tai Chi. And I’m sure most will agree with me when I say the more relaxed you are in mind and body the better your Tai Chi.
I'm fairly new to TaiJi, have been training for over a year, but have been doing qigong as part of gongfu for 4years, and have recently began to think more about this sort of thing. I also practise kungfu, part of which is internal style (southern shaolin) and part of which is long fist, which seems to be more external. Have also done boxing and kickboxing regularly, but haven't been able to do that for the past 2 years since I was in a car accident. I'm concerned as to if usual strenuos exercise also prevents practise of being relaxed. I don't do weights, because I can't, but used to, and was intending to once my shoulders were able to deal with it. I have had people say that light weight training helps the muscles as it builds up more supportive (slow twitch) muscle, and then you are able to move faster without straining yourself. From peoples experiences - do things like pushups/situps and other standard exercises make trying to achieve a relaxed state more difficult?
In my expirience it would be a yes - more difficult to relax after 'pushups/situps'. What sort of shoulder injury have you got?
is whip lash on one shoulder, neck is ok, and other shoulder had some whiplash after a more recent accident taichi has helped a lot to keep it relaxed so it doesn't get strained, but I will need to bring strength back into it when it is better.
Yeah mate some physio-therapy may be a good idea, Im sure Tai Chi can help as well, but I'm no expert. If you can find a good master who is also familiar with Traditional Chinese Medicine, they may be able to offer some good advice, or specific exercise sets. Sorry couldn’t be more helpful.
I think its more of an isolation weight training vs tai chi rather than a compound weight training vs tai chi. There are many compound excersises that work a great ammount of muscles at the same time, personally, I dont see how these interfere with tai chi or how they are different from manual labor. Axelb-good to see another long fist man
physio therapy is sorting me out also I found that when training, sometimes using weight (as in wearing ankle/wrist weights) for a while, then taking them off seems to help with relaxing the muscles. So I can see how it could help relaxing by using weights in some ways. Has anyone else done this sort of training? Part of some of the sets I practise starts of with a short burst of deliberate tension to give a contrast to the relaxed feeling you should be trying to achieve throughout the set. I'm definately going to be a lot more weary as to how much weight training I do if any. edit: hello cybermonk
Just have to say that we're in a pretty privileged position to even consider discussing this. The old tai chi masters had to do their own tai chi practice to do and also had to be able to work the fields and do manual labour all day in order to feed themselves and their families. They seemed to do ok (and I'm sure they'd find the idea of going to a room in order to pick up and put down heavy things laughable) I agree with many of the above posts. We should be talking about muscle isolation rather than weight training. You can have a job which is physically strenuous but as long as this strain is not too repetitive, it's probably a benefit to your all-round fitness rather than a hinderance to your taiji. Remember, you need to be in good physical condition to be able to sense your "chi"/balance/body mechanics. So as I said in another thread - all-round exercise is great (e.g. swimming, climbing, even e.g. working in the building industry), a lot of free weights (in my opinion) do more harm than good, and I think that exercise machines isolate your muscles so much that they have a direct and negative effect on your taiji (i.e. if you do a lot of machine exercise - not just going to the gym every now and then).
Good topic... firstly I would like to point out that weight lifting isnt about picking up a weight then puting it down... and if youre constantly tense after weight lifting then thats a condition of non relaxtation not the weights... I will definitely agree with Cybermonk here... its all about isolation vs compound... Isolation exercises are even frowned upon by the serious weight lifter in general... these are known to build a non symmetrical body shape and dont work the muscles of the body as well as a compound movement... they also dont work the ligaments/tendons as well as a compound exercise and the pretty much train the body to move in one plane... which is what should be avoided... Compound movements on the other hand not only train the target muscle but also train the supporting muscles and those that arent seen... they also strengthen the ligaments and tendons... also free weights are the best for strength of muscle and tendons and ligaments as not only do you need to lift the weight but also support it and balance it... machines do not do this... if you think that manual labour is not repetitive then try diggin a garden or raking or planting a rice field... its all about repetition... you can also develop a program to complement your taiji training... it does NOT have to be stagnant... in fact if it is then your weight training needs to be looked at... my program changes every few months and I never train each body part more than once a week... and again if we're talking repetitive work being bad for you then taiji mustnt be too good now... I get up and 6 every morning, then I do my stretches then my chansijing and then my forms lots of repitition there... and when I do my forms there are several stances which are quite low so my legs get a hell of a work out and my shoulders also get worked in the chansijing exercises... so is this bad...?? Personally I think alot of it is mind of matter... yi over intent if you will... you believe something will make you tense so it does... I tend to relax pretty well but maintain strength in my relaxtion (which I understand is what song is all about)... my muscles dont tense up and I feel pretty good throughout my taiji... I have been told too that the fact I get so hot during practice (especially my palms) means that my qi is flowing quite well... (tbh I was very surprised at how hot you get and was a little concerned at the tingly feel in the palms at first but now after a bit of study I am more excited by it than anything...)... for me weight training is like meditation or taiji... you need to find balance in what you are doing, also you need to be focused and flexible and I also know that belly breathing is advocated especially in the main compound lifts... there is alot more about this I could go into.. and will perhaps when I get the time... (got to take the kids to school...) cheers
This is something that has occured to me too. Just look at how much life has changed in the past 100+ years. There are so many labour saving devices that we would be at a loss if they were taken away. We'd be pretty knackered too.
Token protest. Why would working out and being fit and strong effect your ability to 'relax'? Muscles DON'T become 'tense, even when relaxed', when you work out. What happens is that they become stronger and your bodyfat percentage goes down, making it look that way. huh? why? Furthermore, if tai chi IS something that requires you don't become stronger and fitter, which I in no way accept, then why would you want to do it?
I agree with you there, but I think that there comes a point where hard physical exercise/labour could affect your progress. Not stop it, but affect it. As it is taiji certainly makes your legs stronger, and I am sure it makes you fitter (done properly). As long as you stretch out and act carefully I cannot see why hard exercise cannot be part of your general fitness regime, or that it would affect your taiji too much. But if it were the case that you didn't want to get stronger/fitter for taiji, then I'd do it for the empty force and the ability to rot my opponents internal organs from across the room.
From the Chi stand point if one were to believe in the idea of Chi Ki QI and the various other spellings... weight lifting concentrates Chi in the specified area. Weight Training may not be bad if preventable measures are taken such a Chi Gung which help move move and circulate Chi through out the body. Not sure if this was addressed in the post.... just through my idea out there before I forgot it. OKay going back to read.
Ok, there are lots of different ways to train with weights. Tai chi is about being healthy, then it's about the martial side. It's NOT about sculpting yoiur body (rather, it's about your body deciding which shape is optimal for yourself). Problem is, while weight training does make you stronger (in performing certain actions), the main role of weight training is, for many people, to change their body in such a way as they think it "looks good". From that pov, the health aspect is secondary, and it can cause real problems if your body doesn't want to be shoehorned into the shape you want to give it. As I said, I like the idea of training your body in an all-round way so you develop all your muscles. I'm not against being fit and strong and healthy, I'm against isolating different sections of your body for any reason. Yep, lift weights every now and then, but do it in a way that you're balancing that with other exercise that will help your body develop its own way. The fact is, most men's bodies weren't made to be the v-shaped, big biceped god type, just like most women weren't made to be size 6, big breasted supermodels (unfortunately), and it'll really damage your health if you try. I just love the idea of a young Yang Cheng Fu saying "sorry dad I can't sweep the back courtyard today - it'll unbalance my meridians". We need to get serious - it takes a LOT of weights/exercise/repetitive work to reach a stage where you have to worry about disproportionate development, but the older you get the more important it is. Take a good look at the next old people you see - the way you carry yourself and the work that you do does physically change your body. Oh, and Knight Errant - tai chi makes you healthy, it makes your body more relaxed, balanced and comfortable, and if you practice it you will live longer and have less health problems. Even if you're one of those people who believe it doesn't help you fight, it'll definitely make you into a physically/spiritually/emotionally calmer person who is better able to handle pressure, whether it's from a combat perspective or just life.
NO IT ISN'T! The main goal of functionally-based martial arts weight training is to make you stronger. The health aspect is definetly NOT secondary. If anything, doing pointless hours of cardio under a misguided notion that it's 'better for your health' is much worse than weight training.
I second that, the way I look has pretty much nothing to do with why I weight train. But dont mess with the marathon runners...we have feelings too you know
