EU referendum

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by cloudz, Feb 23, 2016.

  1. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    It's a Mickey mouse private members bill.
  2. Prizewriter

    Prizewriter Moved on

    In immigration, the report I read up on suggests that overall the UK benefits from immigration but people on the lowest incomes actually may lose more money as a result. Additionally, there is no consenus on the fiscal benefits (or disadvantages) of immigration on the UK over the past 15 years. I'd be careful using the term "facts" in that instance. It's factually correct to say there is no consensus on the fiscal benefits (or lack thereof) for the UK regarding immigration. Saying there is a net benefit as a fact is, academically speaking, spurious. I'm not having a go at you my friend, I'm sure you've read research that supports what you are saying. Objectively speaking though there is also research that contradicts that. From the Oxford Migration Observatory:

    Regarding undemocratic: NI as a region has 3 MEPs, none of whom are part of a major UK party. For years they have tried to increase the fishing quota here in NI to no avail. They simply are too little to have a say. That might still be the case if the UK left the EU though lol!
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2016
  3. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Where did you get that from. I'm not either - what an odd notion. I believe we should have the power to control our borders if we want to. To have control, to set the rules. If I was against immigration or immigrants, I would just want the door shut, not have a policy for letting people in at all. It is a part of global life, and I accept it for that, I don't need to be "for" or "against". That's for partisans.

    Look at the policy of your country or Australia, you don't let just anybody in. Australia for example wants people who have a trades or professions at least. There are criteria, it's not just ok we'll let in everyone and anyone who comes knocking.

    There's nothing wrong with a policy like that if it suits your countries situation. I'm not saying I want exactly that - it's just an example. The main point is having our own control as a preference rather than conceding it. that's not being against immigration.

    I accept that we're part of a wider club that wants something different to everyone having their own border controls and policy, so it's something conceded to get other benefits. Whilst that remains, then it's something you live with.

    If you hadn't noticed, we have a housing shortage, and in some areas our schools and hospitals are being over run, not to mention prisons. That's not good planning to have policy that puts more pressure where you are vulnerable to make things worse, I just prefer we have our own controls in place. I want the politicians I elected and who are from here to put the policies forward and vote on them.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2016
  4. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    "modern world". don't get fooled. I guess we're
    just ruled over by another bigger club with wider interests, nothing more, nothing less.
    Be careful what you wish for, if your wish is for a bigger brother than the one you have now.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2016
  5. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    The EU has done more to protect me from big brother than the conservatives have.
  6. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    The EU have done more to protect you than this and previous governments have done.

    Fixed that for you.
  7. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    To me the world is trending towards increasing integration.
    We're generally stopping being so isolated and forming more of a "world" community IMHO.
    It makes no sense to me to go against that trend and try to isolate ourselves again.
  8. CrowZer0

    CrowZer0 Assume formlessness.

    I really don't see the benefits of leaving the EU, can someone point out what they would "supposedly" be? Would we be that much financially better off?

    I think the trade benefits would hit us hard if we were to leave. Check your supermarket items, most are made in other EU countries, and from what I've heard we trade a lot more in from the EU than we do out. Things like pasta, lemon juice etc we would likely see a price hike in unless we negotiate really well. I also love the freedom of movement, driving from here to Germany, Croatia, Amsterdam and stopping along the way has been a joy, and something I can see becoming a hassle if we were to leave the EU.
  9. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Yea, that's how it starts. One day in the future your kids might be voting to joining the global world order union (tm.), whilst telling people, look at how they can make our lives better than this lot. Every good politician knows you have to give a little to take more. The EU agenda is to become more powerful and exert more influence across it's territory. Be partisan all you like; Labour, Conservatives, EU politicians, Green, Liberal, modern, future, past.

    The plan is to take as much control from you as needed to keep control of their system of governance.

    How much did the EU politicians do to protect the Greek people or the Cypriots bank accounts ?

    Truth - they didn't give a toss, other than keeping their finances in check. If you think they have your civil liberties at heart, you are fooling yourself. They would raid and steal directly from your bank account without batting an eyelid. They have already done it once. If that isn't the ultimate big brother move, I don't know what is.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2016
  10. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Something being a trend has little meaning in of itself. It's like when your mum asked you: "if your friend jumped off a cliff would you do it too?".

    You know trade, technology people in general. Great, let's integrate away - web cams at the ready!
    But some sort of World government is the integration of this subject matter. The governments of Europe integrating, and the next step?

    Just because some global trends are in place that make the world a smaller place, doesn't translate to the integration of world power being a great idea.

    You know it might be, but I don't feel like it is. If you are asking me, the more we have in common with the people making our rules for us, the better. The closer the people are to them - the better. The more integrated national governments get with each-other the less "integrated" (representative/accountable) they will be with the man in their street.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2016
  11. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I work with multiple Italians, a swede, someone from the netherlands, someone from India and a whole bunch of northerners.
    We have loads in common. People from that there Europe aren't from Mars or somewhere.

    I think it leads to less conflict and war. It's hard to go to war with a country you have strong trade links with for example.
  12. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Is that how you read it? Ok.
    Do you think a Scottish or Welsh MP knows a bit more about the needs of their region and its people than your average English MP?
    My local MP and local councillors knows more about this area's needs and the people needs that live there, than say the Cabinet.

    It's about centralizing of power and how much of that you think is a good idea or not.

    I can have things in common with David Cameron or Italian and French MP's, Scottish people, French people, Irish people, Italians, Barack Obama - again that's just hardly the point.

    Yea sure, we let our mates get way with murder all the time.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2016
  13. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I can't day I know enough about the EU to decide wether to stay or go. I really don't think people want out of the EU so much as they want an improvement on their situation. Voting for a new government night be a better idea.
  14. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    If that was even remotely on the table or where we could be heading, then that would be something to consider. The truth is the EU model is nowhere near it, it's a pretty old fashioned model. Until there's something to talk about and serious proposals it's a pipe dream. Europe, as it stands, is just a far more a complex situation than the inception of the US. Even though I may have said as much in principle I'm not against it, I just think in practice we are too far removed from anything like that. If there was any evidence that it's what the EU itself wanted to move towards, then it would be worth listening to.

    I think we would effectively be a "united states of Europe" if they had their way just with a completely different system of governance.

    "The nature of the European Union is bureaucracy. The failure of the single currency, the problems that it has had with migration, all of them point to the fact that it is an old-fashioned model. It's sclerotic, it's out of date."

    - Mr. Gove

    I don't really have an opinion on the man - but I agree with that quote.

    By "higher courts", I guess you mean unelected ones and that stand above all the 28 nations of the EU (European court of Justice). In effect it can do what it wants and no one can do anything.

    It would be like us giving such power to the house of lords.. and instead of "house of parliament", we call it a "court" (I think it does act as a court sometimes). Would you have that? I doubt it somehow - it remains part of our system and accountable to it. It doesn't stand above us making decisions the Commons can do nothing about. They may be doing some things you like now, but in principle the set up is rubbish, and leaves the door open for an abuse of it's unelected power. It's a very undemocratic situation.

    The EU hurt the Greeks so much for their own benefit. The shame of it is the Greeks allowed it in some misguided notion that they'll benefit in the end, or that it's all for the common good. And simply fear of breaking away. After the banking crisis of 2007, Iceland took the course the Greeks could have taken. Default, print your own currency, start again. They are doing ok. The Greeks on the current course won't see anything like that in their lifetime if ever.

    Don't think that the financial crisis is over either. The Greek situation will rear it's head again.

    You mean about the only EU country with the single currency that isn't broke. Of course Germany appeals, it would be about the only place I imagine.
    Why aren't all our youngsters running over to Spain for example - who can't even find jobs for their own young people. I know, send them all to Germany!

    Until we have a Europe wide fiscal and monetary union to discuss, it's a broken model that should be ditched before more harm is done.

    Meh. I think you'll find they are also principle based for some poeple. I am happy to admit to being a Euro sceptic. We are lucky we have negotiated our way to a privileged position within the EU. How long that will last is anyone's guess. With good will a 'free trade zone' could remain but that's not what horse trading is really about.

    That's why the reasons for leaving now are well mitigated. There aren't either that many good reasons to stay other than to uphold the status quo and free trade zone in my view.
    No reason to upset the apple cart, as there's no real pressing need right now for us to do so. Cameron is no fool, I think he bet on this very situation to bring us a referendum.
    I'm "in" for now, but I can't wait to see some polls. If it's tight things could get interesting..
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2016
  15. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    ok. well i just thought it was confusing the way you worded it before. i get it, although i don't agree.

    so let me you ask you this, you've got gypsies living in england, no? let's say you have a bunch of gypsies living in various camps around england, never got identification cards, never got anything. born in england, raised in england. you're an immigration official and you find them. what do you do with them? if you kick them out, where do you send them?
  16. embra

    embra Valued Member

    This is the 1st opinion poll that I pay any real attention to as John Curtice has consistently been the most accurate statistician pollster over quite some years.

    The bookmakers bets and volumes paid down will also be interesting, as they always get very close to smelling the real coffee - they got the Scottish Independence referendum more accurately than anyone else.

    Have to wait a bit longer for the bookies and make do with Curtice's Torygraph analysis for now.
  17. embra

    embra Valued Member

  18. embra

    embra Valued Member

    The major factors that may sway otherwise rational thinking towards Leave/go/out -> " Jump of a cliff" are a) the number of Bozo Johnsons that come out making their case for sovereignty etc e.g. Jeremy Clarkson, as they are all drunken farting English geezer down the boozer types and b) what comes out of the appalling refugee crisis in the next 4 months.
  19. Prizewriter

    Prizewriter Moved on

    I also think (I gave an example in my own case) that it may also come down to parochial issues. For instance, if an artist is working in a gallery that is in receipt of EU funding, with no guarantee the UK government will take up the slack when the funding is pulled, you aren't likely to vote to leave the EU.

    Certain groups are unlikely to vote to leave either. Irish citizens can vote if they are resident in the UK. There are about 400,000 Irish citizens in the UK. They are highly unlikely to vote to leave as it will make their lives more difficult in terms of staying in the UK and moving to and from Ireland.
  20. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    That's kind of odd as citizens from other EU countries don't get to vote as I understand it. Ireland being an EU country and all that, just seems a strange one.
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2016

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