Double grading - any thoughts

Discussion in 'Kickboxing' started by ShinKick, Mar 1, 2006.

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  1. ShinKick

    ShinKick New Member

    I've been a member of a fairly new club that started in approx Jun 05. The club is affilated to the PKA. Gradings are carried out approx every 2 months. Students are allowed to take two gradings in one session (if they pay for them)
    A few people in the class who started at the same time as everyone else are now a belt higher due to this. In my opion they are no more skilled and have attended less classes than some of the others.
    I thought the grading system was awarded not just learning sequences but your attitude, improvement, effort and attendance between belts - Surely this double grading makes a mokery of this? I could agree with a double grading if you missed a grading one due to illness holiday etc but not just because you can afford to pay for two in a go.

    Ps Im now a green belt and still done no sparring is this normal - same for everyone in club
  2. M Lambert

    M Lambert Fitness Consultant

    I dont train with a PKA club but I would think if a Kickboxer can achieve the criteria then there is no problem. Obviously not attending training lessens their chances and gives them less expierience but if they can do what they need to do for your gradings then there is nothing to hold them back really.

    A grading, I would guess and from my time in Judo (havent graded in Kickboxing yet) is reaching a set standard, obviously standards are higher and require more the higher the belt. If these Kickboxers achieve it then yay for them.. dont be sour about it, just kick their asses when you fight to prove to yourself you are a better trained fighter.

    And again, as I dont train with a PKA club I cant say if it is normal in your system not to spar before green belt... but I was sparring on my first night so yaknow.
  3. DangerMouse

    DangerMouse Dazed & Confused

    We had the same kind of thing happen (not PKA) a few years back when a new instructor took over the uni club. People were able to double grade on the lower belts, but it became nigh on impossible at an intermediate level. The first few grades were nothing too complicated, and as the club was runnning before he turned up, some people obviously had some experience from before his time.

    You could only double-grade if you were deemed ready to do so, and I only knew of one instance where someone did it at intermediate level. This was because they had missed one grading through illness, and were about to leave the uni at graduation.

    As far as sparring goes, we could start from day one, but the contact would increase the more experienced you were.
  4. seyah

    seyah Valued Member

    The best person to put this question to is JCH he's just pased his BB under the PKA he can shed some light on this.

    I never allow my students to double grade but have skipped students who have shown exceptional skill.
  5. kickboxingidiot

    kickboxingidiot Valued Member

    still not done ANY sparring and youre a green belt?
    no offence but
    1. the double grading just like that unless your really exceptional is a joke and makes a bi mockery of the grading system i.e. all about the £££

    2. still not sparred and a green belt???
    Find a new club!!!

    you shouldnt be a green belt if you havent sparred yet and thats universal in most clubs!
  6. seyah

    seyah Valued Member

    AsK Your instructor why as a green belt you aint graded. If he's a PKA instructor he will be fully covered i'd guess?

    Tell him you want to start sparring and suggest you don't grade untill you've
    got up to scratch as KBI said you should realy have done some sparring.

    If he refuses to allow you to spar i'd concider your place at the club if they arn't giving you what you need.
  7. kickboxingidiot

    kickboxingidiot Valued Member

    Giving out belts for £££
    the ultimate characteristic of a mcdojo :p
  8. seyah

    seyah Valued Member

    You are generalizing sir. Belts are awarded on the grading requirements and you never know there may have been loads of pad work and stuff. not doing sparring shouldn't stop someone being awarded a grade.

    As ShinKick hasn't responded to any replies in the thread he hasn't realy given us any insight into whats actually going on at his club.
  9. samuri-man

    samuri-man New Member

    belts, gradings, in kickboxing???? i feel like a white belt
  10. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Personally I've always been bemused by gradings in Kickboxing, I feel it should be like boxing (I know some places are).

    Remember though, gradings are about demonstrating you have a level of skill in a controlled environment. Whilst there should be a degree of 'alliveness' (that would be sparring) in them. What some folks forget is that some people pick things up quicker than them, so logically they could progress faster with fewer lessons, I have done this myself on a few occassions as I'm an avid cross trainer.
  11. paradoks

    paradoks New Member

    The man makes the belt, not the belt makes the man.

    I think Shinkick is lookin at this in the wrong light,

    I'll give you an example, at a dojo i attended recently i put the class of juniors through their Kata's. The highest grade student in the class was a green Belt. For some unknown reason this kid had somehow graded to green, and had a poorer level of understanding and skill performing his first kata then even students one belt above white! As such, he did in fact look somewhat pathetic. I do not blame him though, i blame the man who graded him to such level when he clearly is undeserving and unprepared.
    Shinkick is not considering the fact that a student several belts higher is NOT a better M.A. He simply wears a higher grade belt. Imagine how he will feel being outdone by a student below him in rank, but above him in skill and knowledge.
    In my opinion, if a person is well deserving, a double grade is fine, yet should be rare. The point that i think is unfortunate though, is that Shinkick seems to be jelous and bitter that others are wearing a higher rank then he. Rather then being concerned about the standard of the dojo or the class. In my opinion S.K needs to focus on his training, his skill and level, rather then spend so much energy worrying what others are doing.
    I myself spent 4 years on brown belt before grading to black, even though most in the style, my master inc. believed i should grade. I wanted to be what I believed a black belt should be, not what others think. Wearing a belt, be it green, blue, brown. black, or pink with purple polkadots means nothing if your skill and knowledge does not reflect that belts accepted level.

    Then again, shinkick speaks in a manner that suggests a lower grade, and i might be looking at this from purely a yudansha's perspective. Most, when lower ranked do in fact place much importance on their belt, i hope in time he will see that it means nothing unless the wearer deserves it.


    P.S every style places different emphasis on different aspects of M.A, but in my opinion, grading to green without ever having sparred does seem a little odd.
  12. kickboxingidiot

    kickboxingidiot Valued Member

    Paradoks"every style places different emphasis on different aspects of M.A, but in my opinion, grading to green without ever having sparred does seem a little odd"

    definitely paradoks especially in kickboxing where the emphasis is mainly on how well you spar within the rules.

    soudns to em like the PKA is a mcdojoised form of kickboxing as far as gradings go
  13. Okay, have you been given the opportunity to spar? You should have. You can start sparring with the PKA from pretty much the beginning (some PKA coaches don't like yellow and under to spar), and you certainly should have had the opportunity to spar by now!!! Who is your coach? "Sparring in the PKA is totally optional (until brown belt level), but everystudent should have the opportunity to do so." You're gonna have to spar for your brown and black belts, so this makes it even stranger!

    Isn't that a tad ignorant? Based on what exactly? One particular case of someone not sparring? If he genuinely hasn't had the opportunity, then he should ask his instructor. If greenbelts weren't allowed to spar, we wouldn't have a low grade division at the nationals ;) Once again, you've come blazing in with very little knowledge of the topic (the PKA).
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2006
  14. aml01_ph

    aml01_ph Urrgggh...

    Why not? Some people just advance faster than others. On what did you base your assumption that they are not as skilled as you say?

    If this were the case, substandard students would get a belt ranking. Paying for two in one go is the same as paying for two in different sittings, so you should look for the actual grading requirements on why these people deserve to advance.

    Personally I find this strange, since even white belts tend to spar within a month of basic training. This even gives light to your question on why the other guys in your club should get a double grading.
  15. seyah

    seyah Valued Member

    I did suggest that this one was for you buddy as you know how the PKA operate! :) :) :) :) By the way my students use some of the PKA fight combos now at my club as an optional Grading set. So if I have a student who wants to train but not sparr at least they can use the combos in the erlier part of the grading system to help them when they need to spar for the higher gradings.:cool:
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2006
  16. grasshoper

    grasshoper Valued Member

    In life you don't always get what you deserve, and you don't always deserve what you do get.

    No system is perfect and I'm sure if you go to just about any club, there will often be people wondering how an individual at a higher grade got there.

    As far as double gradings go, it depends on the individual and the instructor. If the instructor feels you are ready, then why not. People have different abilities so a fluid system is often better than a one size fits all. Hopefully if someone is not ready the external examiner will not pass them.

    As long as you enjoy the classes that' s all that matters forget about the others in your class and concentrate on improving yourself.

    As for sparring, depends on the individuals and wether they are ready. Try speaking to your instructor about it, if he/she doesn't know how you are feeling they can't do anything about it.

    Once you do start sparring, there is no better feeling than giving a higher grade a complete ass whupping :)
  17. kickboxingidiot

    kickboxingidiot Valued Member

    I think its an absolute disgrace that someone can even get to green belt and not have ever sparred
    if you havent sparred you are quite simply not worth that grade!

    yes i remmeebr you saying you know how the PKA operate
    its all about the $$$

    sorry but i dont respect the standards of the gradin in PKA after hearin this
  18. seyah

    seyah Valued Member

    I don't know how the PKA operates KBI so can't answer your comments on $$$

    But whilst all my students are required to spar for grades, saying a student who grades without sparring is not worth the grade is a little presumtuous.

    I don't understand how you can make that statement as there are many people who may never have sparred but if they had to would do very well!! Just for the fact that they can fight with or without ever practicing the MA's in any way shape or form.

    I think you are looking at this just from your own standards buddy. many students in the MA train to keep fit, develop thier minds and body, socialize but may not nesseserally want to fight but put in 100% when training.

    I have two students in my KB class who don't want to fight but for gradings wear full body padding etc even though they don't go hell for lether they show the techniques rather than fighting spirit however I would still respect their wishes not to spar if thats what they wanted and this would be shown in their final grading mark.

    And I aint in it for the $$$$$$
  19. dizzyday07

    dizzyday07 Valued Member

    I started Kickboxing 6 months ago, under the PKA, and recently passed my yellow belt (the 2nd grading).

    From before I started, I was worried that I would be made to "fight" as this doesn't interest me at all but my instructor put my mind at rest at the introduction session. In my club, sparring/fighting is optional and there is a seperate class for those that want to participate in this and some also compete in competitions.

    For each grading we have to learn 2 set moves/sequences (each from the attacker and defender position) that have to be repeated a number of times without making mistakes. In addition you have to be able to demonstrate the basics - e.g. different types of punches and kicks. As you progress up the gradings all the sequences have to be demonstrated at each grading. In my mind this is more complicated than just showing you can punch/kick someone and defend yourself.

    As with all martial arts, i feel KB is about technique and not just knocking hell out of your opponent. If I progress up the gradings and sparing is a requirement then I will need to make a personal decision whether I want to put myself in that position - at the moment I don't feel that my responses would be instinctive enough in response to an opponent.

    I'm sure there are some clubs that are focussed on money and not necessarily passing on good technique/skills but that is the same with as lot of sports.

    As has been said, if anybody is unhappy about how there training is going then their instructor should be the first person to speak to and if a satisfactory explanation is not given then maybe it would be better to find anouther club as different clubs have different focuses.
  20. seyah

    seyah Valued Member

    Nice to see your focused on what it is you want out of your training dizzyday07 as you say you decide if you wish to spar no one else. As you say should the time come when you may be required to spar then you will evaluate your position at that club. Im glad to see people of conviction in the sport and whilst I hope you do decide to spar and try out your skills as your confidance grows but if you don't, don't let anyone tell you you didn't deserve your grade.
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