does anyone here practice bagua?

The Bagua system is more a grappling art than a striking art. The XingYi system is a 100% striking art. Since the grappling art will need to have feet and hands at the right positions and at the right time, the grappling art (require multiple contact points) is always more complicate that the striking art (only require single contact point).

 

Because circle walking is a training method, not a fighting method.

 

The problem is when you have built a "cross legs" habit, it's very hard to get ride of it. When you do your circle walking, if your leading hand and your feet are all on a straight line (as in XingYi Pi Chuan), you won't build bad habit. When your leading hand and your feet line are in a 90 degree angle, that's the "bad habit" I'm talking about.

 

Only if you practice nothing but circle walking. If you train everything else, the linear work, the two person drills, sparring etc, everything takes context.

 

I disagree entirely, not just from your comments as I am sure allot of people will have an idea that Taichi, Bagua and Hsing yi is a separate thing to learn. All 3 needs to be learnt at some stage as a Nei Gar (internal) practitioner. Unless you are just doing it for health reasons. It is a system in itself.

Taichi has way too many half measures teachers out there, but you cannot control that. Also, too much Bejing conversion of steps, moving completely away from the core principle of Nei Jong.

One comment I picked up with the responses is that it kills the stance.

In terms of which should start first, that is debatable. In my school of thoughts, Taichi is actually done last after Hsing Yi and Buaga as TaiChi is the most complex to master.

As a Nei Ja (Internal Family) practitioner, I recommend you experience Bagua in line with Taichi. Bagua will buff up your footwork and agility work. It complements each other.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with learning all three, I just don't think that learning more than one MA at the same time as a beginner is generally advisable. It will present no problems for some people, but I think for many people it would lead to confusion. Personally I would rather become reasonably experienced in one thing before adding another.

True. I think it's a great shame that there are too many people learning Taiji who will never progress beyond a certain level simply because of the teacher's limitations. But there are good Taiji teachers who only teach Taiji. Doing other IMA's may be useful, but it is not essential, as far as I can see.

I'm not familiar with the idea of 'beijing conversion'. Please explain.

That is my understanding too: that Hsing Yi was traditionally taught first, then Ba Gua, and lastly Taiji.

I hope I will get the chance to try Ba Gua at some point. Thank you for the helpful advice.

 

Hi,Prodigal. Belated welcome to MAP.

I want to be sure of the meaning of your first paragraph. Is it that in the teachings you've received the three have been made into "a system in itself", or that in theory the three are parts of a whole rather than stand alone systems which originated at different times (and which can be combined/complementary) ?


Johno-----I think you'll find there is no real widespread tradition of learning the three in a certain order.Or rather what tradition there is stems from the HI/PK generations after the period when HI and PK guys in Beijing were hanging together.What you will find is some people will be/were taught HI by their teacher prior to their PK. At some later point,much more so in the post popularization of TC,some will/did learn TC,which may or may not be from their HI/PK teacher.

TC lines don't seem to have taken an active part in this theory or practice,except to teach HI/PK people TC. Never heard that Yang,Shao-hou or Chen,Fa-kor,for examples,spent time in HI/PK prior to learning their TC.

 

Good point on the note for beginners trying not be confused. However, depending on the teacher, lineage and system, some do teach elements of all Taichi, Hsing Yi and BaGua as to beginners. For example, the BG footwork, the Hsing yi co-ordination to attack and the Taichi and Chi Kung to help build the internal power and learn breathing techniques.

Indeed there are many good ones, but I feel the bad ones outweigh the good. I think depending on the commitment and the need of the art, any IMA will have benefits. However, to fully understand the learn the art (which will take a life time) as a Martial Art, which is what it was initially designed for (martial), I believe there is a need to help progress quicker or better at trying to master IMA.

Sorry about the slang...By Beijing Conversation, I mean the Post Mao IMA rolled out to in China such as your Beijing 24.:yeleyes:

Well, that is just one school of thought. Some like my teacher believes that BaGua should be taught last being the most complex and long to master. The orders are dependent again on the system created and the need of the practitioner.

Cheers, just sharing my thoughts.

 

Cheers for the welcome.

My answer is BOTH.

The latter being what my school of thoughts as a Nei Jar practitioner in mastering the Martial side of IMA for combat and application purposes and not just SanShou. This is more of a modern approach as IMA practitioner.

The former being one of my teachers who teach a system of a particular lineage he holds that includes all three.

However, TC in itself is a full system I believe as I know there are stories of PK vs. TC masters fighting and ending up drawing (I forgot the names).

 

Hi,

This is my first post here. My main arts are Baguazhang and taijiquan, but I've studied a bunch of other stuff over the past 15 years. For the OP, I'd suggest going for Baguazhang as long as you can find a good teacher, but that goes for anything. Baguazhang and taijiquan are perfectly complementary for a beginner IMO as the principles complement each other, and it shouldn't be an issue starting out with both just like you wouldn't have trouble learning math and science at the same time. You'd probably have a harder time starting out with 2 arts that have conflicting principles, but that's a different issue.

As for cross legs and wrestling, I can understand John's concern, but I've trained various throwing arts for years in addition to the standup grappling training in Baguazhang and I don't find any issue with the circle walking practice in that respect, cause you're not meant to be walking circles around you opponent with an on guard posture as a fighting strategy. It's a way of developing certain attributes and body method. Depending on the style of Baguazhang you are training there will be a lot of other parts to form and develop specific fighting strategy and techniques, the Gao style sets this up very clearly in regard to what the circle and straight line forms are meant for, but the same ideas are inherent in all styles of Baguazhang, IMO.

 

I practice it. As for recommending it depends what it is you are looking for.
Are you looking for an art that uses evasive type of movements, quick changes, circular type of motions?

Do you want something that can take time to develop
application skills, doing repetitive motions like walking a circle, standing meditation? Would you be willing to try to understand trying to grasp difficult concepts such as rooting and sinking?

Baguazhang is a highly effective art. It requires alot of practice. Walking circle for at least 20 minutes correctly, standing meditation all of this to build up the external and internal discipline needed to perfom the applications.

Some people want something that is more congruent and may think that walking a circle or standing post mediation is archaic so then Baguazhang would not be the best fit for them.

 

Welcome to MAP emptycupoftea.

I read your posts with some interest - you can contribute some value here.

Taiji_Lou is a now banned Troll who spouted some of the most ridiculous cat-splodge known to mankind (look in back posts if you doubt me.)

 

Thank you for the warm welcome.

 

You will find on MAP some folk who have some decent CIMA experience to share and some more external folk who are really interested in CIMA; and you will find some folk occassionly spouting some absolute barfing nonsense usually involving Chi moving folk by magic etc.

Every now and then we have a Chi-war thread between the zealot advocates and the Rationalists/Show-me-the Scientific-Proof folk (I tend to be in this end of the spectrum, but not completely.) Where the Rationalists usually fall down is in misunderstanding the context (IMHO) i.e. swim in the water a bit before drinking it.

As CIMA and Nejia is about so much more than a mouldy old chi-eese sandwich, having someone here who knows about CIMA and Nejia is always welcome.

 

As you have experience of Wang Shu Jin's lineage, a good thread would be covered on this topic,as you will find a few interested MAPers on this subject.

 

The Qi of mystical magic and all that in my opinion belongs in the Daoist magic religious setting. I personally find no reason to debate about Qi exist or not, because some people try to present it as a mystic force outside the laws of science. In my opinion Qi is simply a Chinese word similar to how we have the English word for energy. Alot of it I think depends on the context of how the word is used same hanzi 气 anger,weather,breath,mystical religious connatation.:hat:

 

Oh boy! Someone besides me who mentions the "ch'i of the weather".

Welcome to MAP,emptycup.

btw,we have a member here (Hannibal) who has often put up clips of Wang in various threads. He's quite enamored of his ability tho' he's never studied in Wang's lines.

 

Didn't Taiji_lou spout great mounds of <<magic>> about chi changing the weather?

 

Yes-there we have the conundrum of human manifested ch'i effecting the ch'i of the weather. Which would be similar methinks to a bit of human blood dumped in the ocean effecting the tides.

You do know there are "documented" cases of high level ch'i gung masters changing the weather? In China,during the ch'i gung fad of the 80s. These guys always seemed to be ones in favor w/members of the Party. For a while,anyway.Until it was shown the hucksters,I mean emperors,had no cloths.

 

Yes the hanzi 气 can be read as weather like Tian Qi 天气。

In regards to Wang Shu Jin's line. He has quite alot of students or people who studied under him. I have spoke to Mr. Kent Howard the author of Wang's book on Baguazhang regarding some people in the line and Mr. Howard has said including my teacher's teacher have studied with Wang.

From what I have received from my teacher it has become more of a synthesis and the principles and "energies" are the focus rather than say a more classical approach found in more formal styles, and in my opinion the modifications made through out the time line is one of the reason so many different offshoots of Baguazhang.

I am also currently learning Liang style and the more classical versus the more synthesis has both its pros and cons. I have done a little with the Kun Tao Bagua groups, there approach is a no nonsense approach so really depends on what you are looking for.