Does aikido still work if you practice just as hard but don't beleive in the universial energy that; binds the universe, allows karateka to smash boards with the hands and others to heal by proding clients feet or inserting needles. Or, allow men from Taiwan to to pull trucks with their penises? Sorry for the flipant question. But ki/chi is used in so many explanations, how many aikidoka think it is essential to aikido tecnique? Is it more essentail to aikido than penile truck pulling?
Much power is generated from the abdominal area. While I don't believe it has anything to do with chi, breathing from your diaphram will also add more power and give you more stamina, as well as circulating oxygen more efficiently. It's probable that the traditional cultures realized these things, and thought themselves to be tapping into some spiritual energy reserves or something.
See this thread and my debates with Yoksha (later section of the thread) Around the 30th post http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18176&page=2
Yes it still works, the mechanical properties of the techniques work just fine on their own. Now many will say that Ki development and harmonizing will vastly improve the technique.
When a technique works perfectly (let's call it 'that ki feeling') it feels the same for a golfer, tennis player or aikidoka - perfect harmony of timing, distance, balance etc. I used to score goals in hockey some 20 years ago and the feeling was the same as executing a perfect akido technique - effortless and 'where the hell did THAT come from'! Of course, MY 'perfect' won't be anyone else's. That feeling comes very, very, rarely, but that's what I would call aiki (harmony with the spirit). Once you've had that feeling, that's what you seek and start to believe in. When I was a kid I produced a fantastic pot in a pottery lesson, thrown on a wheel. To my horror the teacher cut my precious pot in half, praised it,and then said: 'Now do it again!' That's a tough lesson. The 'ki' feeling may happen once or twice through luck, but if you can repeat it at will, then I guess you have achieved what O Sensei achieved. P.S. Don't be fooled by what I call 'circus tricks' - most have been around for centuries in India etc. and have a simple biological explanation. Unbendable arm debate anyone??
No no no no no no no no no nooooooooo, for the love of... When a technique works "perfectly" it's because all the mechanical aspects of skill, distance, timing and posture all came together. (as you stated) but it isn't directly related to "ki" and how it may be described as a sole entity, Ki as a subject is open to so many personal interpreations so can we avoid labeling it in gernal terms ?. See above.
How can you say it's a feeling not directly related to 'ki' without asking me what I mean by what I say? That's like hitting air. Noooooooooooo? For me, 'ki' IS - perfect harmony that we FEEL. Don't give a toss about random and varied definitions cos in the end I can't feel what you feel and vice versa so you're dead right in that we can't debate it or define it. We can only feel it. The Japanese use the term to describe 'ki' life energy in ... such things as general health, pottery, sport etc... so if they are happy to keep it loose, let's do the same. I understand your frustration, Dave, but how can you say something is or is not related to ki when you can't agree what ki is and you cannot possibly know how anyone else feels at any given time. Some of these threads get so bogged down in stuff which can't be explained or debated, so all we can all do is ask - 'what do you mean by ki' NOT dive in and rubbish what they say because we have a hangup.
Fair enough, but as you've just stated, your comment was what you thought Ki was, that wasn't clearly explained in your previous post which might lead people into understanding, that the feeling THEY get when a technique comes together is ki when in fact it may not, because as you rightly point out they can't feel what you feel and visa versa. Remember you said "...it feels.. " rather than ".. it feels like to me.." See my drift ? >edit< It can only be "ki" if the person firstly believes in it's concepts and existance. >edit again< The issue of KI and it's existance and importance in ai KI do is as subjective as religion. It is thus, because it can never be conclusively proved to exist, it is a belief and or understanding on an individual basis, nothing more. I have absolutely no problem with Aikidoist believing in ki, discussing ki or aparently benefiting from it however, I do and will take issue with people who tell others "this is how it is" without first taking into consideration there are problebly just as many quality aikidoist who don't aspire to ki, it's concepts or it's existance, as those who do, all I ask it that people who wish to discuss their ki related issues do so with consideration for those who aren't interested in it as a core foundation of the discipline. This subject has exactly the same connotations as religious debates where for instance a Christian tells an Aithest (sp?) that God does exist and that they should believe to be a better person.
You're right in as much as I know one very competent aikidoka who after about 5 years of training, asked us in a post-training pub session: 'Who's this Ueshiba bloke anyway?'. He'd heard of 'ki' but probably thought it belonged in a lock! Some can and will learn in a 'monkey see monkey do' fashion and have little inquisitiveness or creativity, so they will never read anything or study anything - just train. That's fine - for them. Others will read and debate a huge amount and make an informed decision about 'ki'. Glad informed debate is alive and well in these postings Hows about this one - does God have Ki or IS God Ki? (I jest). :Angel:
Rest assured that if a student of aikido asked me that question he'd/she'd be "spoken to" Careful... your almost saying that those who like myself who don't aspire to understand Ki as a direct part of my study are creativeless or lack inquisitivenes. That would be unfair and entirely untrue. I may not be religious but I've read the bible, having read it doesn't mean I believe everything presented in it or, feel I am enriched as a result. And another generalised and somewhat unfair comment, many students are quite informed and understand a very many details of aikido both practical and theorectical (like myself) that doesn't mean they have to believe in exactly what you and others do. I don't and never will debate the question *if* Ki exists, because i'm in absloutely no position to prove my argument (neither are you) I'm pleased you jest.
In brief, I'm just glad that you ask the question and make a judgement about the whole 'ki' thing. I'm not bothered as much about who believes what - I want students to have information, not propaganda. I just think (only my opinion here) that it's good to have at least SOME interest in aikido as a whole, outside mat technique. I stand to be shot down, (especially as I am getting a lot of jip about other activity I used to perform such as live tanto practice), but wouldn't a GOOD club inform its students about such stuff as O Sensei and Ki and express a view. After all, it's hard enough to choose a sensei, but if you joined a Ki Aikido club I reckon you should know what they found their techniques upon soon enough to decide whether to stick with it or move on to another style. Note my choice of words, Dave, as in the last posting, I would like aikido students to know 'about' Ki, not necessarily to engage in debate about its qualities, or even its existence. I think that they should know that there are several schools of aikido that have different views on Ki, and know the view of the sensei teaching them. After that, they can choose what to believe...
What does breaking boards or doing a technique right have to do with ki/chi? Breaking boards has to do with strength. You can believe in ki all you want, but if you're weak you're not going to be able to break as many boards as a body builder. Doing a technique right is just that- doing it right. No mystical energy there. I view chi/ki the same as I view religion: people didn't understand something, so someone made up an explanation for it. Example: the Greeks didn't understand lightning, so someone told them Zeus was throwing it.
Agreed but, there is a differece between "information" and 'pontification' on a particular subject. And where do you get the impression that KI isn't discussed and individual views expressed ? Just because I don't subscribe to the theory doesn't mean the subject is banned or taboo in my dojo. lol.. assuming you know what the hell good or bad aikido was/is and had some form of appreciation of the differences in aikido, otherwise how would one be able to make the decision you suggest without first spending considerably longer investigating the differing styles.. Which most newcomers to the discipline don't do. Fair comment fella, and I don't have a problem with that. Assuming of course one lives in a part of the country that supports several dojo and differing styles in each (which isn't the case for me) and proberbly many others unless you live in a large(r) city
You're dead right about the last point - although a bit too busted up to practice now, I spent years trying to find good aikido around Bath - Under the label of Aikido found one bloke teaching a mix of karate & stuff, another proudly mixing it all up with judo and thinking tomoenage was the best way to show off aikido (!) and finally, Kai Shin Kai where it was better than the rest, but I never saw any freestyle (with techniques) or jo/bokken etc etc. Could have started my own dojo in Shudokan as I had Soke's blessing but being the only person in this stylefor a hundred miles it would have been very difficult. (In case this sounds a bit negative, a can say on the positive side that Bath Ki Aikido club seemed well run and taught, as did the Bath Jujitsu Club, but not my thing. It took me 2 years to sample that lot properly!
I remember reading a story about O Sensei and one of his main students. This student came to the dojo slightly drunk one time and I guess other students were trying to drag him out of the dojo, but they were unable to, because this guy was better at Aikido than them. According to the story, O Sensei yelled something like "He is drunk. The spirits won't go in him when he is drunk! You should be able to lift him." This student is the same guy who started a new branch of Aikido that is slightly different in its teachings than Ueshiba's. (Can you tell I'm tired and haven't studied this history for a while? I can't remember names, but it's out there and that branch that was started is fairly popular today. Could be kodokan.) ^^Freeform: Okay....Um, AiProperBio-MechanicsDo.
I personally feel that ki does make the techniques improve, but I can see that the breathing done with ki exercises can generate a lot of power without the belief, there is life in breath, strength in it, I just personally chose to believe in ki, and others are free to do as they wish. Dave, its nice that even though you don't personally believe in the power of ki you still let it come up to topic in your dojo. I know at the dojo I train at regularly the topic of ki comes up quite regularly, but if one person doesn't believe I honestly don't know because whether or not they believe is not my concern, its almost like concerning yourself with someone else's religion or any other belief or non belief they have. Also Dave, where is your dojo located?
