Creating a Western Family Internal Boxing System

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by ANGELSGYMSINGH, Aug 8, 2011.

  1. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    internal skills in sport science are mental skills and mental toughness and developing these attributes. yoga is great form developing internal mental skills and putting an athlete into there IZOF - Internal/Individual Zone of Optimal Functioning.
    But it depends on the person, some people react better to higher or lower stress levels.
    I highly recommend you read some sport psychology, you may find some great stuff in the subject material Mr. Singh.
    Traditional Forms and Kata go a long way into skill learning - make fighter makes there own kata as a fight plan (some without knowing what kata is) e.g. BJJ flow plans. I know if i gain mount i should move to ezekiel, if that fails i have the option of snake choke or arm triangle, if the arm triangle fails i have the option of armbar or snake choke. That is very similar to the game plans set about in forms. Forms are pre-developed game plans.

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    Just call me G ... brother .... I have plenty of people who know my titles... lol.... anyway I may need to read more on what you specialize in: Sports Medicine... Please recommend some books and I will do some work on it... also please give any links so that the other readers can follow along and give their input....

    Please tell me your experiences with the Heaing the Combat Athlete stuff mentioned in the thread and since you are a sports medicine guy... what are your thoughts on Master Bisio's work....
  3. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    The term Kung Fu (Gong Fu/Gung Fu) is a misnomer. And in previous centuries, it was nevered used to mean a martial art.

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    Help us become Warrior Scholars

    I believe you bro.... please hook me up with where ya found this out so I can read up on it.... a credible link to a book on amazon or something else.... Zaad's motto on his profile is "Prove it!!" Im not that critical but I do like to research informed opinions and yours has a tone of being an informed opinion.... if the thread means anything its about helping each other get smarter on the passion we all love.... That is why I presented so much information... so that others could look it up, reflect and fill in any gaps in the conclusions that I presented.... So please.. hook us up.... so we Pugilistic, Spiritual Warriors and can do some work and become Warrior Scholars.... Thanks
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2012

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    Healing the Combat Athlete Question for Zaad

    Thanks for that and you already got my request for your recommendations on reference material that you follow so I can put in some work on that subject... You already have my references from Bisio and Jerry Alan Johnson's book from the post.... Have you read Khandi Madama's work with using Yoga with MMA Grapplers to prevent injury and heal? what are your thoughts on her work.... If you have not read these works I have reviews on them and find them very well done for the pugilistic adept...

    With that response I am very interested in your opinion on preventive health aspects that I mentioned in the healing the combat athlete section. I read your profile and you are or were and have graduated from a sports medicine program and I am impressed with that and would ask that you share alittle on the subject.... What are your experiences with the East/West approach the Master Bisio has published on and I cited in part. Do you think it helps and could have helped GSP? Do you use them yourself? If not what do you use to stay preventively healthy and if you do not use the traditional methods I have mentioned what why?

    Also thanks for the involvement in the thread...

    Additional note: What Zaad is talking about, and has put in a colloquial tone that makes what I have written seem so eridite, is insightfully impacting and quite profound. He couples East and West methods, in conclusion, rendering both understandable and accessable. His thoughts are what I wish to bring more responses to as they lead us to the big question of the thread.... Are we as Westerners who have learned transmissions from the East able to evolve what we have learned and still call it "Authentic" or as the term connotes: Truely Effective?

    Some thoughts...
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2012

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    Is the sports science stuff limiting in potential and scope

    Brother Zaad,
    I really am thinking hard on what you said about how sports science views internal skill practice... They think its a mind thing. If you are familiar with the practice of Pranayama or Tao-Yin, its resulting powers of controling the body and even in the case of the few who demonstrate, is capable of much much more with gTummo being an example that I am skilled at... is there more than just a mind thing going on.... Liuebafa or the 8 methods begins with mind, spiritual vitality part of the three treasures defines it as a state of mental attentiveness ... but for those of us who have experienced the IZOF and found an indescribable more... thing ... could the Western definition be in any way limiting? or, Are you of the thinking that th mind is more than the grey matter the chinese include in the extraordinary organs? Please give us your thoughts on this....

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    Master Wu Mengxia - My Pugilistic Teacher of Chin

    Special Note: If it hurts your brain or makes you not wanna read more remember ... you asked for it ... ;). Found the link for your judo throw...

    Martial Man had a response to my post that asked me to explain "Chin". I found many explainations. A key word that seemed to come up alot was one that Wu Mengxia in his rare but useful Pugilisitc Taiji Quan book on the Small Circle techniques of the Yang Family. The word is "Transformation". In my experience and gathered vocabulary I feel that few words describe it outside of usage... almost like you can not articulate but when you feel it or see it you recognize it immediately. Another word may be used to grasp it called the concept of the "Void".

    When performing substantial/insubstantial movements it is the feeling or imagined feeling that a pendullum has at the botttom or top of its apogee. The space of thought or more than thought... intent that suspends, creates or destroys a thing. Intent in this sense is akin to purpose or essence. For this reason ones intent is developed through a training regimen that develops the senses to a high degree. Purpose is felt and the appropriate action follows. Some say that in this regard the idea of chin equals power. The action becomes a power when applied to the transformation of self, form or situation. My favorite Chin concept is Wu Chin or the five actions or powers: Follow, Link, Adhere, Stick, Never release and Never resist.

    There are three songs with annotations from Master Wengxia that help me answer Martial Man's question. I did rsearch on this topic years ago and this response is from my notes. The response is a mix of the original song, Mengxia and my own understanding of the subject. Sorry about the length but this response is in the context of three pugilistic aspects of Chin: The Empty / Full Concept, The Confounding Round Concept and Taijitu Concept:

    The Empty and Full Song
    Empty within empty and full within full is being able to execute the skill of transformation. The ebb and flow of transformation can only be executed when one’s spirit of vitality gathers around one’s center; moreover, that such skill is sensed and flowed in the opponent. One must empty energy when full so that the hands transport with power. Wu Chin engagement allows one to become empty to receive an opponent’s energy discharge so long as there is a firm but gentle firmness in the hand. Mastering the Eight Word Method Song will allow one to be able to transform.

    Lacking familiarity in the rationale of emptiness and fullness is to waste time and energy in the end one will not succeed in this or any internal boxing method. As stated before, emptiness receives and fullness discharges. The Key is within the palm as if there is fullness within it and one does not discharge then technique is difficult to refine. Within Yin/soft there is Yang/hard and vice versa if the spirit attends one’s center and the hand/palm moves in a circle in receiving energy and linear when discharging energy. In this sense defenses and attacks can not fail.

    Confounding Round Song
    The way of the confounding round is most difficult to comprehend as movements that are up, down, following and uniting is infinitely wondrous. The mastering of the Empty and Full Song is necessary to begin an understanding of the unstable circle that transforms to gather and expel energy. Even the linear extension or retraction of any part of the body can become circular through spiraling motion. The greater the intensity and frequency of the spiral then the longer one maintains the power of internal boxing. With this understanding small destroys big, slanting destroys even and shapeless destroys shaped.

    Entice the enemy deep within the confounding unstable circular movements of the hand and palm. This is called Hua Chin or the attraction into emptiness of the enemies leading strength if caused to overextend or commit thinking that one is empty or weak when indeed the opposite is true. The spiraling movement of the body can make this happen by slipping off (parrying/guiding without releasing resisting contact) and now one can guide the over-commitment no matter what the force if the timing is correctly executed: One once can move One thousand pounds.
    Advancing and retreating the hand and foot advance in tandem. The hand/palm seeks to receive, disperse and expel energy using horizontal and vertical strength of the confounding round theory. Pressing forth strength is divided by striking with the entire body (Wholly Integrated) or striking with a singular part of the body (Local Strength). When one’s posture, in this endeavor, is structurally sound (Difficult to find an opening to uproot or unstructure) then unified agility (hand and foot arrive in tandem) makes the spiraling effect very effective on a mental, physical and spiritual level. In fact the opponent will be attacked on these levels.
    The opponent’s center of gravity or his/her grounding is affected with a successful entry into his/her flank. The opponent who can strike expectantly from his/her flank can stop such an entry so heed the message of the Thirteen Character Diligence Song. However, if successfully entering the flank the adept must continue to press the opponents horizontal or flank while maintaining a unified agility of wholly integrated strength or localized strength that keeps the hand and foot arriving at the same time within a posture. If this is happening then the method cannot fail.
    The intrinsic strength that can be executed through spiraling in the confounding round method is found by precisely issuing of energy at the collapsing point of a transforming enemy. This means to strike, intercept or evade right before the enemy transforms from full to empty (attack) or from empty to full (retreats). When one attacks or defends using a unified agility or wholly integrated strength issued at the opponent’s flank or horizontal, then the opponent will feel the weight of the “Mountain” fall upon him/her.

    The Yin and Yang Song
    Few have cultivated the Yin and yang of Taiji. Swallowing-in and spitting-out, opening and closing express the concepts of firmness and gentleness. They are two concepts expressed in the thirteen methods. In T’ui Shou and San Shou gentleness draws the opponent into being swallowed-in and firmness expels the opponent into being spit-out. Yang Shou Hou’s method of spitting out is to be crisp, fast, cold and quick. The ward-off, roll-back and press is used to swallow-in (Yin/soft, circular) while the push spits-out (Yang/hard, linear) the opponent. Silk-reeling or spiraling allows power to be issued or received with transformative power.
    The Four Straights (Cardinal Directions, South/East/North/West, Heaven/Fire/Earth/Water, Ward-off, Push, Roll-back, Press) and Four Angles (Southeast/Northeast/Northwest/ Southwest, Wind/Mountain/Thunder/Lake, Splitting-Twist/Shoulder/Grasping-Pluck, Elbow) receive and release energy. These are representative of the eight cosmic changes (Bagua/Transitions) of the Taijitu-Bagua trigram circle. Issue a straight power against and angular power and vice versa at the opponent’s collapsing point as discussed in the Confounding Round Song. Understanding and applying these concepts in movement or stillness gives one martial authority and there is no need to worry. Staying within one’s range of contacting the opponent using Wu Chin, hit (strike) then attend (grapple) or vice versa; moreover, do both in tandem as in Wing Chun. Pay attention to the three fronts of hands, feet and eyes when the opponent is capable of executing these skills.

    The elemental properties of Taiji Quan movement are Advance (Metal/Splitting), Retreat (Wood/Crushing), Hold Ground (Earth/Crossing), Pivot/Circle Left or Weak-side (Water/Drilling) and Pivot/Circle Right or Strong-side (Fire/Pounding). Air is the element that links the other five together and the medium to a Taiji Quan adept in the effort to utilize their elemental powers through knowing the nature of their power.
    Air eludes all and assumes things, Fire moves fast and consumes things, Metal holds weight and can pound things, Earth nurtures life and can ground things, Wood grows about and rips around things, Water flows through and surrounds things. If one knows the nature of a thing one can know what it is and is not capable of doing. Tenacity is implicit in any successful fighting style.
    Know yourself well enough through your fighting experiences to recognize the resolve of your opponent to employ a particular style and recognize your own resolve to neutralize it. Within such resolve are contrasts or dualities that exist between the fighters and within them. If the fighter on either side of the match does not realize this fact, then they cannot foresee their own weaknesses. This is the key to their demise.
    When one faces an enemy, they can know what they are up against by using these metonymies and understanding the nature of an Outsider, Insider, or Brawling fighter. The Outsider uses speed, deception, and accuracy with a nature akin to fire and/or air; however, fire consumes air. The Insider uses agility, momentum, and fluidity with a nature akin to water and/or wood; however, water can drown wood. The Brawler although often slower and less agile than his/her opponents restrains and overpowers opponents with a nature akin to earth and metal; however, earth can bury metal. Within every style is the key to its own demise if the fighters know its natural proclivities and limitations as well as his/her own. The concepts of heavy in light and empty in full must be understood to devise personal methods of applying these reflective observations in form and function.
    Light in heavy, empty in full and vice versa, respectively, must be sensed and acted upon without the slightest obstruction. Grappling and Striking methods do not generally exceed these three skill concepts: Light, heavy and empty. If one feels lightness (ungrounded) in heaviness (resistance) then one should quickly attack to uproot and/or unstructure the opponent. During this process if one can conceal transforming empty to full when becoming light to heavy then one can use Small-coordinated strength to control and overcome “awkward” Big strength. When crossing hands with an opponent and one feels lightness in his/her projected heaviness (ungrounded) then immediately issue a hit at the collapsing point or when the response to one’s pressure is to tense-up their muscles and freeze the skeleton.
    One should flow or “do not slightly remain” when such strength is grounded and non-resisting to pressure as this is when an opponent is felt to have a lightness within his/her heaviness. This interaction can be observed as substantial and insubstantial (one leg-side heavy/weighted and the other leg-side light/un-weighted) movement to avoid double-weightiness. Two adepts engaged in this manner will be seen to lean to and fro like a weeble-wobble dummy when stationary and like a gliding snake while in movement. They both seek the horizontal of each other’s flanks while following, linking, adhering, sticking and never releasing or resisting while maintaining contact. Such opponents are skillful Taiji Quan adepts who understand and can execute the unity of opposites which is the key to executing the Eight Cosmic Taijitu-Bagua Trigram Circle Changes and the Wujing Five Elemental Phases which the Founders of Modern Taiji Quan Monastery and Family styles call the Thirteen Postures:
    1). Straight and Angular approaches are revealed through a knowledge of the Taijitu-Bagua Trigram Circles relational description of the Eight Cosmic Changes and the Wujing power of creation and destruction through use of the natural proclivities of the Five Elemental Steps.
    2). Energy is received and released through knowledge and application of the Confounding Round.
    3). Swallowing-in and Spitting-out is brought about by attending through use of the grappling methods of warding off, rolling back and pressing to deflect or attach to an opponent in order to uproot him/her through a aggressive push that sets up the use of the Seven Stars.
    4) One spits-out and releases with firmness and swallows-up and receives in gentleness.
    5). When emptying one is firm and when one is filling one is gentle: Empty and fill at the enemies collapsing point which is the event of an enemy transformation which must be intercepted, attended or hit prior to an opponent’s intention to execute an emptying or filling method.
    6). Single and double weightedness is caused by a abundance or lack or of substantial and insubstantial movement.
    6 ½). Being Weighted is the first part of proper, postural structure which is being sunken (grounded), soft, circular, centered, rhythmical and arhythmical.
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2012
  8. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Valued Member

    You may also wish to explore Tom Bisio's other books, in particular:

    Zheng Gu Tui Na (with Frank Butler)

    Tom has also written several books about Baguazhang and Xingyiquan, the I Jing, and Chinese philosophy. Well worth a look at...


    Steve Lamade

    ANGELSGYMSINGH Valued Member

    Thank you

    Steve... thank you for this giudance. Tom's book on healing is pivotal in my ongoing efforts to inprove my self-healing regimens .... If the Bagua book has alot of information on jing luo then I am very intersted..... respect... G

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