No, John. It isn't. It's simply a different experience. You cite DC. I live 10 minutes outside of DC. Before that, it was Baltimore. It's not like I'm dealing with Sheriff Roscoe P. Coltrane over here. Neither I nor anyone I know has ever had a gun waved around in their face, or been threatened, or stared down. I've had cops act overly officious when doling out tickets. And I've had cops who I felt were being indifferent. But that's a far cry from what you're describing. Likewise, I've known plenty of happily married, psychosocially adroit police officers who are simply doing their jobs. So the question becomes this: Why is my reality more naive than yours? It's not a perfect system. And there's no doubt at all that there are issues. Systemic issues even. But not so systemic that it's naive to believe anything other than what you believe. If you have faith in your argument, it shouldn't be necessary to talk down to people. Make your points and trust that they'll stand on their own merits. I don't think that's so terribly much to ask on a discussion forum. Questioning someone's right to an opinion based on their age is dirty pool.
Interesting thread. My own opinion is, I feel sorry for the cop being alone in that situation. I would definitely not have bundled in to assist as has been pointed out, the officer might initially perceive me as a threat and he's already in a stressful situation. However, I would certainly have told the officer that if he wanted my help it would be available. This alone would make my intentions clear to him, give him a plan B and assure him he's not alone kind of thing. This would also allow me to stand a little closer. At an evening funfair once there were around 6 youths causing trouble and looking very eager for a fight and there were only two officers to deal with them. I told one of them that if it kicked off I'd be willing to help and was told "Noted, but for now please stay back" which I did. Nothing came of it and upon leaving the officer I spoke to nodded to me so for me that meant appreciation, encouraging me to do the same again if need be. All of that aside, the problem with the scenario in the video is how QUICKLY the situation changed. The officer is on top admittedly struggling then the next second he's having his face smashed in then BANG BANG. Game over. Unless a third party was already helping I can't see a willing to help bystander being able to help in time.
A lot of this will come down to the industries you work in, the kind of neighborhoods you live in and, dare I say it, the color of your skin. As a case study a friend of mine here in Sweden started off his studies at a small college in the U.S. and found that the local Police Department treated him very differently once they found out he was a college kid; apparently they gave people significantly less hassle once they reasoned that as a college student you were likely to have parents with money and status. Notably my own father is really supportive of the police force, although he himself admits that his only dealings with police include the officer that used to live two doors down from us and the community relations officer that used to come in and speak to the kids at his school. I mean typically the people who are the most supportive of the police are either police themselves or.... ...middle-class, white people who live in nice neighborhoods and whose primary dealings with police officers are in professional "office" settings. There are deviations but generally you will find no group more supportive of police officers than the group that hasn't been stopped by a patrol car on their walk home. And that fact is not necessarily condemning of police in itself, I'm sure plenty of people just don't like police because the police might arrest them for committing crimes. But also for a lot of people in poorer communities the police are, through no fault of their own, often the bearers of bad news. For some kids growing up the police aren't heroes: they're the men who came and locked Daddy in a cage for two years. Of course there are two sides to it. For some the police helped them pick the pieces up after their home was burgled, or were very polite and co-operative while installing IT equipment for them. Though I'm a little skeptical of the importance of these stories, not because I don't think their true (I had a training partner in the police, and grew up with one as a neighbor so I'm not going to go on a rant about them) but because a lot of these stories are told by people of a certain status and position in society that makes police considerably less likely to mess with them.
I don't know what you're talking about precisely, but if you meant my asking Van Zandt's age when he lived here it is because he mentioned both Florida, a State notorious of it's good ole' boy policing in many regions of it, and because he told a story about being a child who asked to hold a police officer's firearm. Even bad cops are usually very good to children, so a few years of childhood exposure to police in America is not the same as a few years living here as an adult. That seems quite logical and reasonable to me, not like "dirty pool" at all. A child experience is still a valid opinion of many things, but how adults personally treat them is pretty radically different from how adults treat other adults, hence so many people speaking to them in patronizing pet voices. As I've stated previously on these forums, big city police precincts are usually better than small town ones in America. There is quite a bit of variation in hiring practices between precincts. Both Baltimore and DC are huge US cities. City cops tend to be a bit better at prioritizing legitimate crime while ignoring the pettier stuff, and the young ones often have less to prove due to the exciting nature of city policing. DC doesn't even have legal firearms for it's citizens, so the police are probably a little less gun pointy there. Unfortunately, I grew up in a place with the highest fire rate of cops of any city in Washington, a State which is pleading to change laws so their precincts can fire corrupt cops they are forced to rehire after violently abusing citizens due to the strength of police unions. And then I've spent time in places like Reno and LA, both cities famous for police corruption. I have no doubt that our experiences in life are vastly different, and therefore our experiences of the state of US policing are also vastly different. That doesn't mean it comes from a position of arrogance though. In the past I thought it seemed arrogant of you to default to suggesting to people who have survived violence that their actions in some way precipitated the physical altercation without any written evidence to support that, but I was confident you didn't intend it that way after thinking about it for a moment in the context of all your previous posts. I've seen too much of the darker side of human nature in my life and have become misanthropic and reclusive in my middle years because of it. I tend to be a pretty intense guy who remains switched on much more than I'd prefer so the way people react to me is a lot different than how they react to normal middle-aged men who've never been in an altercation in their lives.
That's kind of my point, John. That's why I said you sounded condescending. Because our intent and our delivery method don't always match up the way we intend. I just asked that you think about how you were coming off. That's it. I don't know which posts you're referring to specifically. But I can tell you sort of my underlying logic. Bearing in mind that I still may be wrong. But it's not a question of blaming the person, in my view. It's just that it seems very much to be about control to me. If I'm in that situation, or analyzing that situation after the fact, I'm not thinking "it's my fault; I made that happen." I'm just thinking "what can I control here?" It's not the actions of others. Not the assailant. Not the police. Not the witnesses. Etc. It's just me. So that's what I tend to focus on. What did I (or the person I'm talking to) do and what could I or they have done differently. Perhaps that's the wrong approach. I don't know.
With utmost respect AP, it is always easy to state what you (or a person in a vid) coulda, shoulda, woulda, done. The dilemma is, one will never know how a situation will be until it ACTUALLY unfolds.
Let's take a look at some data on this topic since my credibility and intentions as a LEO culture authority have come into question, and people can make informed decisions based on social science statistics and court cases if they choose to. Great husbands we have there that are 30% more likely to domestically abuse their wives and children. I personally know a few battered ex-wives/girlfriends of LEOs and a friend of mine was repeatedly raped in her childhood by her Washington police chief stepfather. He continued to have a long career in law enforcement afterwards too. We don't even get to know how bad the problem is--that might alarm people--but we know that there is virtually zero meaningful oversight. Seems all above board now doesn't it. Those wacky vegetarians are at it again. Those were just the first three. It's a pretty long list. It sure seems like my perception of there being an institutional police problem in the US aren't just all in my head.
This post, and ol' Johns helps make clear the "perception of reality" POV that often goes along with these types of discussions. In all honesty, my experiences are not much different from ap Oweyns. Other than a few tickets and one unfortunate experience of being apprehended at gunpoint and handcuffed half naked with one boot on in front of an apartment complex (Marine Corp time of my life of course) for a few hours, I haven't had anything too bad happen to me involving the police. This is why you'll never see me outright say "the po po pig suckers need to die and are evil!" argument from me, nor will I go anywhere near it. Such strong rhetoric usually comes from either actual criminals or the vegetarians (#Van Zandt). That said, most of the friends I've ever had are minorities. I've been privy to hear about some weird stuff involving the police. I can also use a computer and constantly read all these stories and see statistics about police abusing their power (not always stated, just my interpretation). Furthermore, the discussions with my wife about the power police have under the law (which is too damned much with such minimal training, not their fault though) has enlightened me to how much they really can effect an individuals life. All of these things combined make me question if the police should have so much authority, why there are so many incidents of shootings and abuse by the police, and whether or not it's something institutional (which I believe it is). I don't like the idea of there being people who can apprehend me everywhere. I don't like walking around DC and seeing guys in "civi-utilities" with flak vests and pistols taking a defensive posture. That doesn't mean I don't acknowledge there is a need for the police though. Over the years I've just become weary and aware of some of the problems and extent of authority the police have, I don't outright hate police. Conversations like this seem to spin into, "this is why I don't like the police" which gets interpreted (because those stating this don't articulate themselves well, or are profoundly ignorant) or spirals down into, "I hate all the po po!" It's frustrating really. Clearly I'm not a fan of the police as an idea in general, but I also acknowledge and support those that do the job because it's necessary and dangerous. I could easily hop on either side of the fence but I don't, because it doesn't solve anything or produce any sort of dialogue. On the flip side though, some people's tendency to bow to authority immediately is a bit worrisome as well. Baa . . . Baaaa.
Look at the number of calls dealt with in a day by a PD. Look how many of those calls receive a complaint. Even taking into account twice as many going unreported you are still in the 1-2% of all calls ratio
Actually it's 70% go unreported, not 50%, and that's only based on a single study. I think it's probably much higher personally but with it being an intentionally unresearched topic it's very difficult to get meaningful data about it. You are absolutely correct that the percentage of calls versus reported abuse is quite low though. About 2.2% of all full US or part-time officers with arresting powers receive complaints if you account for the projected unreported complaints based on the totals from 2008. Personally I cannot reconcile that 40% of cops abuse their families but less than 10% abuse the general public in the line of duty. The math and what I know about human behavior just doesn't add up. Another major problem is also of course that the good cops cover for the bad ones who are out doing a substantial amount of damage as a matter of protocol.
I offered that story as an insight into my experiences with American law enforcement. I apologise if you consider it an unsuitable example. But you seem to be caught up on that one story when I also posted this: I have a LOT of friends living in the States, most of them ex-mil (now doing private security), many of them ex-cops, some currently serving across a wide variety of departments. I have visited the USA (and these friends I speak of) a few times a year, every year, for a lot of years, and NEVER encountered the corrupt behaviour you speak of (visits aside, I speak to these friends on Skype/FB all the time and never hear about the kind of attitude you described). This is mostly in and around Tennessee, but I lived and worked in Arizona a couple years ago and never once encountered the bullying egos you wrote of. Maybe I was just lucky? :dunno:
It is like stereotypes. Shall we stereotype ALL police, including a vid that does not depict the whole scenario
I can only speak from MY experiences, but then what else do we have? The problem is a HUGE cultural difference between the US, Canada and the UK (taking the three I have experience of) and what sits true for one is most certainly not accurate for another. One thing I do know is that there is a lot less cover up than you would think...we are very quick to eat our own
Just out of curiosity do you have access to the two studies you referenced regarding domestic abuse in police families? Cause these figures could easily be skewed by any sampling bias which may impact on the validity of the research...please don't misunderstand me, I'm not trying to argue with you for the sake of it, they could be very well researched articles, I'd just be interested to read them
The US does have a problem with police brutality eg [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbI5HHz7fJU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbI5HHz7fJU[/ame] Although I believe this is not a change in the frequency of incidents but merely a result of the increased number of cameras meaning there is proof where previously wrongdoing by the police would simply have been denied. The subject of this thread is not a case of excessive police brutality but the bystanders did the right thing to record the incident in case it turned out that way. You cannot step in to assist if you don't know whether you might become accessory to a murder as in this clip.
Wow. That video was a bit hard to stomach. Certainly seems to be the overreaction John was talking about. Can't really say much except I feel sorry for the family, especially the wife filming it. But... *Puts on devil's advocate hat* Couldn't the victim have just shown ID when asked? (This is NOT an attempt to excuse or justify excessive use of force so please don't take it that way.) Police were called to the scene because of a domestic dusturbance between the mother and daughter (one of which I'm assuming is the woman holding the camera), it's not like they just passing by and thought, "Let's smash the ethnic guy." The victim must have known why they were there so it would have made sense to comply. What we don't see is events leading up to the excessive use of force and I think the episode needs to be looked at in context.
While the video is certainly a case of way too much force, there's still so many unanswered questions. The Young Turks (TYT) speculated quite a bit on this. Why did they ask him for his ID when he wasn't involved in the dispute? The causes leading up to the event are important, but regardless the amount of force being applied when the guy was clearly passed out was too much. The TYT newscaster was correct in her observation of, "he tells him to calm down while he's clearly passed out." The circumstances leading up to him being apprehended may well be justified, that level of force (or lack of awareness to relax on the amount of force being used) continually being applied when he was comatose was abhorrent. You literally just watched a guy get killed on a Youtube video. It's almost a snuff film with some missing elements. I still don't blame the individual police officers though. I blame the law and the amount of force it allows them to use along with the lack of training they are given. You can't make accusations on individuals until you fix those issues, and when/if they ever are you can start crushing offenders for an incentive/example to not overdue things. I have a problem with blaming people who are part of an institution they get indoctrinated into, that crap changes people and it's supposed to. If it's crappy, you get crappy people, and that really sucks in a public safety related job.
The news report posted says that the police were there because of an unrelated incident, which I assume was not the mother and daughter fighting. Although that may well have been the reason that they approached the family.
