Be interested to here if anyone has any views on Graystone 'Hanshi' and if you have trained with him... maybe you have trained with 'local wado teacher' or Dave 'Hassard' or even (and this is the cruncher) the mystical tanaka meiji kyoshi what am i going on about i hear you ask?... read on.... http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34523&page=1&pp=15
Are we talking about Dave Hazard perhaps...because he is a highly respected karateka. I read about Shindo Ryu in a karate magazine last year some time. It looks dodgy from one viewpoint ie Graystone Hanshi's age and grade, but having never trained with him I would not like to pass judgement on the style. I wouldn't put him in the same chapter as the GKR though.
He gave a long interview in issues 8 and 9 of Traditional Karate magazine. Came across as a reasonably sound guy - don't know any more about him than that really! He didn't make any wild claims about no-touch knockouts, generating ki-lightning or anything particularly outlandish. And, yes, Dave Hazard does exist and is a well known shotokan karate competitor and teacher.
dave hazard does exist but if you read the link... he has never had anything to do with graystone 'hanshi'. and whilst he may seem reasonable, how has he become 10th dan from 2nd dan in the space of about 10 years? from what i can see he has never been graded higher than 1st dan by any person that can be verified in any style other than his own
Hi MAp'pers I have a bit of an issue with Sokes ( Soaks ). I sincerely believe that there is no one in the UK who can rightly and morally justify the rank of Judan. However, there are several people who the martial arts fratenity would recognize as judans if recognized authorised bodies were to bestow such an award to certain individuals, and by and large, we universally know who they are........ ( The late ) Sensei Enoeda, Sensei Tatsuo Suzuki, Sensei Morio Higoanna, Sensei Steve Arneil, with possible inclusions by special merit of people like Sensei Andy Sherry, Sensei Peter Spanton, Sensei Ticky Donovan, Sensei Eugene Codrington, and perhaps several others who were there at the begining, proved themselves over a number of decades and whose abililty REALLY does reflect their grade, ( And this is a crucial point, men who are respected by other men who themselves are karate legends, O' Neil, Andrews, Charles, Brennen, etc, etc ).Now, here is the second crucial point ! I firmly believe all the men mentioned if offered judan would reject it out of hand because of their humility and deference to their own teachers. A core issue / problem is the vast gulf on knowledge and understanding between the martial arts fraternity and the general public. I also think we have to recognize, to a point, that excluding the gentlemen mentioned and perhaps several others, the value of fourth or fifth dan and above, certainly in this country, is, in many cases, not a realistic measure of a persons skill, but more a recognition of time served. I have witnessed a number of classes being taken by fifth dans, who were so out of shape or had let their skills slide, that they would be given a severe beating by some of their own first kyu's if they were to engage them in kumite. This wouldn't happen in Okinawa or Japan, ( generally ), and in a very few, non commercial, small, hard core traditional dojos, wouldn't happen here. Basically, for me, the issue is this........... If someone wants to call themselves a Judan, Grandmaster or Soke of their own system, then fine, as long as they don't mislead the new generation of youngsters who are coming in to the martial arts and the public, generally. As long as they illustrate and edcuate the fact that their grade is either a recognition of time served within their own organisation or they have effectively self graded themselves or been given an honorary ward or title, then fine, no problem. However the issue that grates with me is when such people who become recipients of such awards, they then appear in the martial arts magazines and try to validate their grades and exalted position, and propagate the fallacy that their Tenth dan is actually a reflection of their skill. Some traditionalists may take the view that these people are insulting and decrying the groundwork, hard work and reputations of the ' real ' pioneers, who respected martial artists in turn regard as the ' real ' masters. Men who have truly mastered their chosen art, have been SEEN to have mastered their art by their peers and continue to strive for excellence whilst remaining the humblest of men. Others may see these Judans as complete buffoons, harmless eccentrics who are doing no one any harm and in some small way are perhaps doing some good. It's a free country and the laws of defamination can be harsh, just as the EKGB found out to it's cost with the GKR, regardless of the essence of the argument. My personal view is that such people are both of the above and are in fact, are potentially dangerous individuals in that they help to erode and negate the true value of karate as a fighting art. ( This is a personal view and people are obviously free to disagree ).I have been told that one individual regularly visits Japan and presents himself as an unofficial ambassador of UK karate whilst another makes a lucrative income selling DVD's billing himself as the World's greatest kicker !!!? Again, fine, not a problem as long as it's all done in context within their own organisations and the public is educated to the facts. Lets look at the nefarious advertising of ' The world's Greatest Kicker ' as seen in a recent issue of blackbelt magazine. Who has this gentleman fought ? Has he fought the likes of Bill Wallace, Mike Stone, Ramon Dekkers, Rob Kaman, Deisel Noi, Buakaw, Peter Aerts, and knocked them out with kicking techniques ? Has the ' World's Greatest Kicker ', beaten fighters like O'Neil, Brennen, Charles, Lewis, Sewell, ( Men who could kick a little......... ) and beaten them with kicking techniques !!! ? Hmmmm I don't think so. To recap then, If I come across a DVD by a Tenth dan that states ' World's Greatest Kicker - In his own organisation and Graded to Tenth Dan / Awarded Tenth Dan by other unauthorised or universally unrecognized Tenth Dans and never comprehensively proved by fighting THE WORLD's Renowned Greatest Kickers in any format, i.e, points. semi or full contact and beating them with kicking techniques ', then fine, don't have a problem with it and at least it'll say what it really does on the tin ! Also, if an individual wants to present himself as a Tenth Dan authority or ambassador, then fine, no problem as long as it's made plain it's an association only scenario and at no point is an inference to karate in the UK in general is made, and such people don't pontificate in magazines and in the martial arts press in particular while standing on their choclate soapboxes. Perhaps, if they were a little more honest with themselves and the rest of us, then, they might get a little more respect. It's sad, so sad to see the martial arts and Karate in particular go down this road as there are still so many people out there who are training hard with legitimate Sensei in prestigious groups and associatins who by inference are being tarred with the same B.S. brush. Opinions, views and feedback would be welcomed and appreciated...................................UNLESS your a Tenth Dan. Jaae
In the martial arts it's 'caveat emptor' (buyer beware). The numbers of people training is grossly inflated by high pressure sales techniques. Many people only start because someone knocks on their door and/or uses high pressure sales on them. Those that decide to study the martial arts off their own back and actively seek out the right kind of instruction are rare. Grades and governing body recognitiion are only pieces of cloth and paper, when looking for a martial arts 'family' we should look beyond the emperors clothes. And if we don't - it's no one's fault but our own.
whilst i do agree with you, I also believe that people like shindo, gkr etc are destroying martial arts - its nothing new admittedly but phoney MAists are now over protected by laws that were never designed to protect them - i am still for the challenge the dojo method of sorting problems out... but....
At least Mr Grayston has a 2nd dan in Wado ryu and he's studied Jiu Jutsu. I imagine you'd get something worthwhile out of training with him at least. It's not like he's some dude from the job centre who teaches because it's part of his door-to-door sales job.
Hi, As usual Steve is mostly correct, but if genuine martial artists don't speak out and help upheld the checks and balances, genuine karate will be superceded and slide into McKarate mediocrity. ( Personally, I blame funakoshi ........... ) Jaae
You're right, education is the only way forward. But most people WANT to be duped, the long road just doesn't appeal to most people anymore. If I wrote 2 books, one entitled 'Karate for Idiots' and one the 'Complete Book of Karate' the one with breasts would definitely be the big seller.
Okay a left and a right but can you make them big enough for me to get a firm grip to help my wobbling from getting worse
Hi Moosey, Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, so what are you saying ? If you train with a Judan who only has a Nidan in Wado, you'll get what ? Tenth Dan or Second Dan quality training and teaching ? Which will it be ? I mostly agree with Steve, except on the issue of emphasis and intent of a beginner. Yes, the serious student will eventually seek out the serious teacher, but, I think the knowledge should be out there so the prospective student can make an informed choice. The central theme to my post was that, intrinsically, If a guy standing in front of a class of impressionable beginners and he is wearing say, Blackbelt Shodan, he should have the pre - requisite skill sets and experience to match that grade. He would have been graded himself by someone of Third Dan qualification, minimum, lets say, who himself also has skill sets and experience to match his Sandan grade. He in turn would have been graded by a Godan, etc, etc ( You can see where this is heading ! ) To digress a moment, I had a knock on my front door a few weeks back, two twentysomethings started a sales patter about GKR karate and the benefits I would get by joining them and If I joined there and then, I'd receive a 10 % discount and I'd hardly notice the direct debit because I'd be fazed by the quality of the instructor who was a Second Dan. I was told within a year, training three times a week, I too, could be a karate instructor earning big money. At this point, I retrieved from my office, my Third Dan certificate, awarded to me in 1993 thereabouts after a very physical grading by a Japanese Sensei and his co instructors and showed it to the GKR representatives saying I was too busy as I was training hard for my Fourth Dan. It had the desired effect. Have you seen a typical GKR class ? I've seen several. They are standing room only. Wall to wall students. All training with the promise of quick results and the possibility of great earning potential ! This was the offer made to me and I can only speak as I find. I train in Karate, Gung Fu and several other arts, avidly.......... I'm like blotting paper when it comes to the martial arts, even after 30 years, my love affair with the arts is undiminished and I still train like it's my last day on Earth, ( Well, one day it might be......... ). I will study under a yellow belt or a Seventh Dan or even someone who has never had a formal days training in their life, ( And as a matter of fact, I do on all counts ), if they have something to teach. Steve Rowe is correct when he says the quality of a man and his teachings is not truly determined by cloth or paper, however, conversely I wouldn't want open heart surgery performed on me by someone with a Doctorate In Philosophy, ( Although, given the state of the NHS................ ). If I needed To fly to America for the surgery and boarding the plane, a voice says ' I'm a Tenth Dan in Karate so flying the plane will be no problem, fasten your seat belts ' pretty soon I'm going to want to know is he also an experienced and qualified pilot and what's his pedigree. Now at this point, you are probably thinking I'm being a tad pedantic, however, only recently there have been documented incidents of ' amateurs ' tricking their way into scenarios where they did attempt to fly civil aircraft or perform open heart surgery and they were not qualified. They were duly prosecuted ! In fact, I believe there was even one man who managed to convince everyone he was a Tenth Dan............................................. Jaae
Another point to remember many people starting out in martial arts would not know the difference between an Instructor who knows his stuff and one who does not. Many new students will fall for the Dan grade at the end of the name. I have a few Dan grades none of them above second. My 7 year old nephew will get his BB before he is nine years (presuming he keeps going and pays his money) old does that make him nearly as good as me I have spent many years trying to find a good teacher and its only in the last 10 I have found two teachers who I would regard as worth learning with. I know this because I have put the time in. But many new people in martial arts will not know what to look for so the Dan grade they claim to be will a big factor in where they go to learn.
The martial arts are an industry and only a tiny proportion are a sport. If anyone knocked my door or telephoned me to sell me anything I ask for their home address and telephone number and tell them that I'll call on them at their home at my convenience and discuss it with them. (Just as they have done to me) I certainly wouldn't buy anything from anyone that came to me and have no pity for any idiot that does. Before I put my mind and body or that of my child in anyone's hands I would research them thouroughly. I always searched out the best instructors and took private lessons to get the best value from anything I paid. Like I said 'caveat emptor', a fool and his money (and health) are soon parted. Just look at the advertising methods for christ's sake.... you wouldn't have to know anything about martial arts to see through all these guys.
