Hello all, I was thinking about starting a few threads that concern Choi Dojunim's art. I know people are proud of their traditions and I am really not looking for more acrimonious stuff...but what do people think of some threads that concern the way Choi Dojunim taught and saw what he was teaching? I was thinking the first could talk about training, and using a compliant partner, and how this affects the techniques.
Looks like he could put quite a bit of hurt on without a lot of force! [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Hvb4bw1vhA"]Choi, Yong Sool - YouTube[/ame]
To be honest, from an outsiders perspective I look at that video and see that when compliant training is combined with a confucian hierachical society and the asian concept of face you can get extreme cognitive dissonance, where otherwise rational people convince themselves that they are being manhandled and thrown around by someone half their size. You simply do not seem to see this attitude in non-asian martial arts. That video, though not quite as dire, reminds me of some of the later videos of Morihei Ueshiba. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoDK3XuvZWw"]o sensei morihei ueshiba - YouTube[/ame] This is not a slight on the art itself, merely on the attitudes displayed in this video. Is there any reason why this appears to be the only video of Choi Dojunim? You would think that there would be plenty of videos of a founder of an art who was alive that recently (26 years ago). The lack of vidoes suprises me, especially when I compare with Morihei Ueshiba who was older and died 17 years earlier yet of whom there are plenty of videos.
Knowing several of the men that trained with Choi Dojunim for many years, they tell of how hard they grabbed him and how easy he could move anyone...a few principles that anyone can see if they happen to be in Chicago. But I do understand the issue of how people can believe they are being moved trying to save face as it were. There are several films of Choi Dojunim, and lots of Photos, they are in private collections.
If I am ever passing through Chicago I would be happy you up on that offer, all martial arts fascinate me (unfortunately due to time and financial constraints I can't study them all). That is a real shame, I hope that they get placed in the public realm at some point, they are obviously quite important historical records for any student of Hapkido.
Anytime you are in town, although I am hoping to do more traveling myself soon!! I think as soon as we get more people on board with the idea that Choi Dojunim was really very important, for Hapkido in particular, some of this "lost" material might be "found".
Not sure I understand what you are getting at. I see using a compliant partner as a way just to understand the concepts and mechanics of the techniques, but not how and when they are applied. Most techniques should work even if a person is holding on tight if you have the right mechanics. However, I would still consider someone, say, tensing up, or using strength to resist as being "compliant" if they are standing still. To do a technique on someone who is "holding tight" is not the difficult part. The difficult part is really when you start to include movement, and perhaps strikes. As for how Choi Dojunim saw and taught his art, Kevin, would it be possible to breifly describe your understanding of this for the rest of us? Thanks!
Good point, and one I should have included. Energy, motion and striking are all part of the non-compliance I was describing. The only technique I teach where someone just locks on is the very first one in white belt...the rest all include dynamic energy and often combined with striking. I often hear, as an example that people need to combine a strike to "weaken" or "distract" an opponent, and its clear from what I have experienced that Choi Dojunim taught that proper body mechanics made this unnecessary. He taught direct and efficient technique to finish the fight. There was little reliance on formality like in "stance work" and more emphasis on fluidity. That doesn't mean he thought of technique as random, but it seems that his concern was teaching that with a great set of mechanics, any situation could be quickly dealt with.
That was a very clever way of saying it looked like the partner just let them do it Seriously though, I'm not saying anything about the effectiveness of the techniques; however you are correct about the attitudes and it being cultural to a degree. It would be incredibly bad to try to show up or to take down your teacher in those forums.
But when people are in a submission wrestling or jiujitsu class and the instructor is demonstrating a technique, the students essentially "let him do it" also. There is a difference between demonstrating a technique and fighting with it.
Never once did I have any of my teachers expect me to fall with out being touched in any of the techniques displayed or thought. I would get yelled at if I ever performed a limp wrist grab or half A## attack while being demonstrated on. Resisting a technique if you know what technique your partner is doing is a lot easier then when you don't. Part of Hapkido's strategy of working in a real situation is the lack of your attackers knowledge of what you will do to counter. If a technique still fails you have to change to a different one right away.
Demonstrations are just that...I have had lots of new students want to fight me during training, and that is where the art is at its best as I can gently show them how strong the techniques are!
Definately, but even in a demonstration to the class I will not throw myself, nor am I expected to. I will not tap unless I fear for my limbs or am risk of losing consciousness. If the instructor is demonstrating a throw I will not hinder him, because it is a demonstration, but if the throw fails I will still be standing there after the attempt and my coach will laugh, mention that he stuffed up, and do it again. Second thing to note is that that level of compliance only exists for demonstrating how to do a technique. Compliance would be considered nonsensensical when demonstrating the effectiveness of a technique.
That's true, but there's always sparring after. And then, the ability to pressure test in a more extreme environment, competition.
Yes, you are correct... there is also live application, sparring, and free practice after a real Hapkido instructor demonstrates real Hapkido techniques. I don't know why people don't understand this. I get the feeling that people are looking at kids classes at the local strip mall and thinking that that is real traditional martial arts. The videos above just show elderly instructors / founders demonstrating techniques, so they don't really show actual training methods. @ Kave: you thow yourself to get out of techniques the same way you tap out in "rolling arts"?..if the techniques not correct, you should not fall- you should only do it to protect your joints.
We'll put something together and post or send to you. I'll include explanation of my drill progression and ways to minimize injury. @Kevin...can you please get this thing back on topic by detailing some of the drills you do?
One drill that we use frequently is to start with three different but basic breakaways based on three different energy types...the pair then randomly grab and apply the energy and the other partner then applies the defense. This is a great way to start faster non-compliant training... Hope this makes sense.
yeah, i think i understand what you're saying. seems kind of similar to aikido randori. random people attack randomly, defender defends and moves on to the next attack or attacker(s). what's the strategy for keeping the energy going? ostensibly, someone has "escaped" from the random hold. is there a strategy to keep it going? and, how do you account for the attacker quickly going into defense against the escape? what do you mean by "faster non-compliant training"? my hapkido buddies and i had problems keeping the "energy", for lack of a better word, going when we tried to experiment with sparring and hapkido techniques. because in the end, i found, someone always has to be compliant. it was hard to expect my training partner to fight off an arm bar how we were taught to do it in hapkido. and of course, there's always the finishing move. just wondering how/if you've solved the same problem. it's much easier to feel that "energy" in a sparring art like judo, bjj, muay thai, boxing, etc. both sides just keep going in attack and defense until someone gets knocked out, choked out, taps, or time runs out. that's the theory right? remove dangerous techniques (keep them in kata of course), but by removing those dangerous techniques, participants can feel that "energy" and learn what works and what doesn't in a situation closer to a fight than could otherwise safety-wise be expected. regards.
