長鎗法選 Chinese Long Spear Ancient Manual

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by kyrasym, Jan 2, 2011.

  1. kyrasym

    kyrasym Valued Member

    長鎗法選 (Chang Qiang Fa Xuan) is an ancient Chinese Long-Spear manual from 400-years ago, 長鎗法選 (Chang Qiang Fa Xuan), which was written by 程宗猷 (Cheng Zong You) during the Ming Dynasty, when the Japanese pirates fought with the Ming soldiers.

    Download free manual at: http://www.chineselongsword.com/
    English translation at: http://www.chineselongsword.com/speartranslation.shtml

    Below is a video of my interpretation of Stance 1 to 9.
    There are a total of 18 drawn stances in the manual.

    Hope you like it! =)

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJqMQUnGnI8"]YouTube - é•·éŽ—æ³•é¸ Chinese Long Spear Ancient Manual (Part 1)[/ame]
  2. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Just a couple of thoughts:

    Did you verify the dimensions of the Chinese Long Spear before you began your conjecture about how the weapon was used?

    Did you familiarize yourself with the unit strategies and tactics in whose formation the spear would have been used?

    In all honesty, what I see being done is a shallow parody of the pictures from various spear methods, but with little care or concern for what it is that you are seeking to accomplish overall. As a result there seems to be little relationship between what your upper body (chest and arms) is doing relative to your lower body (hips and legs).

    Try this. Imagine you are one of a pair of spear-men who are part of a 9 person squad who members are armed with cold weapons of varying ranges. Now, imagine what your responsibilities would be relative to the sabre-and-shield wielding troops (very short range) and the "Wolf Brush Spear" troops who are required to interfere with the enemy's advance from long range. See what I mean?

    BTW: Unlike the Japanese YARI, which was intended as both a group weapon as well as an individual weapon, the Chinese Spear was almost exclusively a weapon employed in groups.

    BTW#2: I also notice a glaring absence in slashing motions in your spear work.

    BTW#3: ".....written by 宗 猷 (Cheng Zong You) during the Ming Dynasty, when the Japanese pirates fought with the Ming soldiers." I could be wrong but are you quite sure you have the right name? Your characters don't seem to match the name you are giving and I cannot find the person you mention in the "Dictionary of Ming Biographies". Help?

    Best Wishes,

    Last edited: Jan 2, 2011
  3. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    I see two potential "parries" in there and one "ochs"(HEMA longsword-move). The extended-range-thrust is allso shown with european longsword.

    It would be cool to see the techniques together with a partner, it would be easier for us HEMA'ers to see what you're up to :)
  4. kyrasym

    kyrasym Valued Member

    Hello Bruce, thank you for your feedback =)

    I have to admit, I'm not sure about group formations in this case.
    This particular manual didn't touch on group-formations. Perhaps General Qi's manual will give a better idea.

    I would appreciate it, if you can share with us how my movements are impractical for group-formations, and how I can tweak them. =)

    BTW#2: The 9 stances in the video didn't have slashing movements, thus I didn't do any.

    BTW#3: If you googled for "程宗猷", you'll find many results. ;-)

  5. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Thanks, Jack:

    The use of the spear in a formation can be very different from spear-work where an individual has the freedom of ranging his movements over a wide-area. In the case of the Chinese spear, there is a need to inter-relate one's depth of field to that of the other members of the squad. Modern vets reading this will recall that modern squad tactics, for instance, are not quite as free-ranging as one sees in the movies. Instead, individuals who are armed with particular weapons are tasked differently when advancing or retiring. Not to put too fine a point on this, but I remember a video of some European practitioners/re-enactors who gave a fine example of what happens when people fail to work as a unit and choose, instead, to fight "every man for himself". Of course, without the risk of inflicting grave bodily harm all of this quickly becomes academic.

    Getting back to the advice, however, I can strongly encourage you to recruit individuals to take-up weapons of varying range. The late General QI Ji-Guang does a rather nice job of explaining the use of the "Mandarin Duck" formation and how it inter-relates weapons of varying range. My sense is the exercise will do more to open your eyes than many paragraphes by yours-truly.

    There might also be a lesson to be learned from watching videos. One cannot be real sure that the individuals have a sound appreciation of the weapons they are using. I once had an epiphany watching a video which was much touted as a fine representation of Korean fighting systems. Imagine my surprise when I was able to recognize what folks were attempting to do after being actually trained in how to use a few of the weapons. Education versus "guess-work"? I'd probably hold with the education option. FWIW.

    BTW: Thanks for the citation. I'll have a look-see.

    Best Wishes,

  6. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Thanks again, Jack, but I have to report that I wasn't very successful with the GOOGLE efforts. Seems that the material keeps running in the same circles and the presentations from website to website....including WIKIPEDIA.... are almost all carbon-copies of each other. It would really help if you could cite some academic materials. Even the WIKI people comments that there were no citations for each of the declarations.

    According to what I have read this person was evidently well-regarded in his time--- about 1610, I guess. That would put him on the tail-end of the WAKO incursions of the 16th Century. However, if he was a major player, comparable to General Qi, I would think that he would be mentioned somewhere in the "Biographies" or most certainly in the "Veritable Record of the Ming", yes? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

  7. kyrasym

    kyrasym Valued Member

    Hi Bruce,

    Please take a look at this video clip: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTE0Nzc0Nzcy.html

    Right at the very beginning of the clip, it talks about an old "Magazine of the Country's Arts" (Guo Shu Zhou Kan), which has a "Miao Dao" section.

    In it, Master Cheng was quoted along side with General Qi.

    Will this help?

  8. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Yes it does, Jack. Thanks.

    Where I get caught up is that personalities such as the late Gen. QI Ji-guang are true historical figures and are mentioned prominently in the Chinese historical literature. However, I am at a loss to find this other gentleman who seems to be represented as a contemporary of General Qi but does not appear in the historical literature. Let me dig as bit more.

    Best Wishes,

  9. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I found the following information on Chinese 2-handed sabre courtesy of Thomas Chen

    There are at present, a total of 20 Chinese 2-handed swordsmanship schools/styles I have found:

    1)Founder: General Qi Jiguang (1528-1587)
    Name of style: (Miao Dao) Xing You Dao Fa
    Manual: Ji Xiao Xin Shu (chapter 4) and Muye Dobo Tongji (pages 131-140) -- See below for manual
    Followers: Ming military, possibly Qing military as well

    2)Founder: Shaolin Monk by the name of Cheng Zongyou (1561 - ?)
    Name of style: Miao Dao variant number 1 (Dan Dao Fa)
    Manual: http://miaodao.freewebspace.com/ -- "Dan Dao Fa Xuan"
    Followers: A Qing scholar/martial artist with the surname Wu (1611-1695) has incorporated this form into his manual called "shoubilu", still extant today. Qing civilians and present day Chinese as well

    3)Founder: Guo Changsheng (active 1920s)
    Name of style: Miao Dao variant number 2 (spin-off of Shaolin monk Cheng 's original form)
    Manual: http://chineseswords.freewebspace.com/favorite_links.html -- "Pigua Quan", published by renmin tiyu chubanshe 1999, Beijing
    Followers: Present day Chinese

    4)Founder: Han Zhichao (born 1950-60s ?? ) Supposedly a prominent Chinese martial artist and a gold medalist in the national competition meets, presently the director of the Hebei province Cangzhou "Linchong wushu" school
    Name of style: Miao Dao variant number 3
    Manual: Unknown but I will try to search it out
    Followers: His father Han Junyuan (born 1928 ) of all people won 2 gold medals for the performance of his son's form at the 1986 and 1991 national competition meets.

    5)Founder: General Li Rusong (a Chinese warrior of Korean descent who lived from 1549-1598)
    Name of style: "Je Dok Gum" (Korean terminology applied)
    Manual: Muye Dobo Tongji (pages 223-232)
    Followers: Present day Koreans ??

    6)Founder: Most likely originated in the Qing Dynasty
    Name of style: "Da Dao" weapon form of the Chuo Jiao Fan Zi Quan style
    Manual: Unknown but a VCD is available
    Followers: Present day Chinese

    7)Founder: Unknown but of Shaolin Temple origins
    Name of style: Shaolin Luohan Dao Fa
    Manual: There is a manual (published 1928) by famous martial artist Huang Xiao Xia but I am not able to find it anywhere, it is probably hiding somewhere in some Chinese library.
    Followers: Taught by famous martial artist of the Jing Wu Association, Sun Yu Feng to one of his favourite pupils Huang Xiao Xia, who consquently taught Chinese soldiers and civilians in the resistance movement in 1920s-30s this form to counter the invading Japanese soldiers' swordplay. This form is still practiced and taught in HongKong.

    8)Founder: Ma Fengtu (active in the late Qing and early Republican era)
    Name of style: "Po Feng Ba Dao" or "8 Dao moves of Breaking the Vanguard" (using the "Da Dao")
    Manual: Unknown
    Followers: 1920s Chinese North-West Army

    9)Founder: Li Yao Chen (1876-1973)
    Name of style: Wu Ji Dao Fa (using the "Da Dao")
    Manual: Unknown
    Followers: 1930s-40s Chinese military

    10)Founder: Shang Yunxiang (1864-1937)
    Name of style: Wu Xing Dao (or 5 Action Dao) of the Xing Yi style (using the "Da Dao")
    Manual: Unknown
    Followers: 1930s-40s Chinese military

    11)Founder: Huang Po-Nien
    Name of style: Da Dao of the Xing Yi style
    Manual: Book is available at -- http://www.rovere.com/books.html
    Title -- "Hsing-i (Xing Yi) Fist and Weapon Instruction" (Volume 1)
    Followers: 1930s-40s Chinese military and present day Chinese ??

    12)Founder: Huang Hanxun
    Name of style: Jun Da Dao Shu (translated as "Military Da Dao Forms")
    Manual: Book is available at -- http://www.chinabooks.com.au/generalcatalogue/makfu_2.htm
    Title -- "Classical Shaolin Quan, Volume 4: Jun Da Dao Shu (Military Big Sabre Art)"
    Followers: 1930s-40s Chinese military and present day overseas Chinese ??

    13)Founder: Unknown
    Name of style: Jiu Lian Dao of the Praying Mantis style
    Manual: Unknown but the form is practiced in Sichuan province
    Followers: Present day Chinese


    14)Founder: Yu Chenghui
    Name of style: Unknown but it is a double-handed jian form developed by Yu Chenghui based on the footwork of empty hand style Sun Bin Fists
    Manual: Unknown
    Followers: Present day Chinese

    15)Founder: Unknown
    Name of style: Praying Mantis Jian
    Manual: http://chineseswords.freewebspace.com/favorite_links.html -- "Tang Lang Quan", published by renmin tiyu chubanshe 1999, Beijing
    Followers: Present day Chinese

    16)Founder: Unknown
    Name of style: Plum Blossom Praying Mantis Jian
    Manual: Unknown but 2 forms on VCD are available
    Followers: Present day Chinese

    17)Founder: Unknown but of Taoist Emei sect origins
    Name of style: Emei Phoenix Tail 13 (stances) Jian
    Manual: http://emei-jian.freewebspace.com -- "Emei Jian Shu", published by Jindun Publishing House 2002, Beijing
    Followers: Present day Chinese

    18)Founder: Unknown
    Name of style: Double-handed Jian form of Tong Bei Fists
    Manual: Unknown but a VCD is available
    Followers: Present day Chinese

    19)Founder: Sun Lu Tang ??
    Name of style: Double-handed Jian form of the Sun Lu Tang branch of the Xing Yi style
    Manual: Unknown but several VCDs and one DVD are available
    Followers: Present day Chinese and Americans

    20)Founder: Unknown but most likely of Tang dynasty Chinese origins ??
    Name of style: Double-handed Jian
    Manual: Ming Dynasty military manual Wu Bei Zhi chapter 86 and Muye Dobo Tongji (pages 146-157)
    Followers: Saber version practiced by present day Koreans

    Note that the above list is not exhaustive, new additions or revisions are to be expected in the future.

    Go to my webpage on "Links and Articles" to locate a Seven Stars Trading website article with illustrations of Chinese 2-handed swords of the past 2000 years.

    " Muye Dobo Tongji " is a classical Korean martial arts manual and is available in English translation through Turtle Press (www.turtlepress.com). Click below for the original Korean edition in Chinese text of General Qi's Miao Dao form ....
    Korean edition - Chinese text of General Qi Jiguang's Miao Dao form

    (see: http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/contact.html)

    Best Wishes,

  10. kyrasym

    kyrasym Valued Member

    Hi Bruce, I just want to share with you that Master "Cheng Zong You" is specifically quoted in "Muye Dobo Tongji". I've read the Tuttlepress translation, but that doesn't show. You need to read the original Muye manual to specifically see Master Cheng's name in it. The Tuttlepress translation have given the Korean pronounciation to all the Chinese names quoted in the Muye manual.

    And here, is the full ancient Chinese Spear manual demo! ;-)
    Hope you like it:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZEefrSY9dY"]YouTube - é•·éŽ—æ³•é¸ Chinese Long Spear Ancient Manual: Full Demo!![/ame]
  11. kyrasym

    kyrasym Valued Member

    Hi Bruce, in a section of "Muye Dobo Tongji", it lists all the books that the Koreans referenced to. One of this is Master Cheng Zong You's Shaolin Staff.

    I've put it up at: http://www.chineselongsword.com/stafftranslation.shtml (scroll down for it).

    Among the books referenced, you can clearly see "Ji Xiao Xin Shu", and "Wu Bei Zhi" too. =)

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