Chen PH Demo by CXW, Chen Bing, and Chen Ziqiang

Hey folks...

Thought I'd post this clip here, as it shows a nice coherent demo of the basic Chen PH patterns, as well as free-step PH. It also provides a visual of the hierarchy of skill amongst three Chen players that are not often in the same place at the same time.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh5-MRdz5QQ[/youtube]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh5-MRdz5QQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh5-MRdz5QQ[/ame]

Note how easy things are for CXW. How much you see him move, versus the younger ones is a great visual indicator of real refinement. Considering what we have seen Cheng Bing is able to do, this gleans how high the mountain range stretches. At the 5:00 mark, Bing is thrown hard, and injured, prompting Chen Ziqiang to take over to continue the demo. Note CXW's frustration with Ziqiang. I was surprized to see such a gap between Chen Bing and Chen Ziqiang...

 

Excellent video. Much better than most of the rubbish that gets posted here!

Many thanks for sharing!

 

Why surprised? I thought they were equally good stooges’.

 

I'm confused, Chen Ziqiang just did some patterns with CXW. There was all that stopping and starting - and i don't know what the hell that was all about. But I didn't see where CXW tried to throw Chen Ziqiang. But yes He felled Chen Bing nicely enough, but Lio states the correct. He's being the fall guy here which is fine if that's what's being demonstrated.

You're making it out as some genuine test of skill, when it is not clear at all that that is the case. Chen Bing makes no attempts to counter, resist or do anything himself back. It's father son right ? In front of the cameras. I sincerely doubt you'll get Chen Bing going at it full on with CXW on camera - I just can't see them going for it.

As for comparing putting applications on whilst doing a co operative stepping pattern to genuinly free pushing with someone, really there is little to compare..

So as i said, I'm confused about what you're reading into this clip.

 

I understand the sentiments regarding servitude, but it is not the case here. Chen Bing gets run all over the place by CXW. Countering, is all he can attempt to do here. Ziqiang is not up to CXW's expectations to perform the demo to his satisfaction, at least in this particular clip.

As for stooges, I believe that term would fit those whom have never trained with any of these men, yet see themselves as qualified to criticize. Liokault, I am only interested in real conversation. Instead of the epithets and name calling, how about telling us why you see these people in the light that you do...

I did not suggest that this is a hard, quantative measure of skill. Merely a visual indicator. That is, if you have eyes. There is a wourld of difference.

 

Lio,

Seriously, can we hav REAL convo here?

What's yer gripe?

 

I have no gripe. I hold nothing either for or against these people or their style. I see enough free pushing hands to know what it looks like, and it doesn’t look like this 'dance'. It's just way to clean, everything is just given to him, and nothing is defended.

 

It seems to me that if you are to call two of them "stooges", that you do indeed hold something against them....

Chen Bing himself would tell you, he tries. He would also corroborate that CXW is just that good.

 

I call them stooges as they are 'acting' in the role of a stooge.

Yes, I'm sure he would. This does not make it so.

 

...nor would your perceptions make them "stooges" (to use the same logic)



.that you have seen "plenty" of free-step PH, says nothing of the level of PH you have observed.

 

Ah, you use the the term perception to infer that there is a grey area here. You imply that some people may "perceive" that all participants were on an equal footing and on one was a "stooge".
Perception really does not come into this, either they were stooges, or Chen style has one really good player and lots of other people who are really really bad and have no idea, no clue. If the second scenario is the true one you should send them over to me and for a small fee I could teach them not to step into such stupid, weak, pointless positions. I think it would take about a three lessons.

I have seen free-step PH at every level as it exists in Europe as well as playing with various guys from china. Two common things can be said for all free-step PH at all levels:

1/ As soon as its competitive it doesn’t look like that clip.

2/ As soon as it’s compliant it is irrelevant.

 

Perception DOES play here. There is a considerable gap in skill between CXW and Chen Bing. Do not take this as affirmation to your arguement, as you offered "correction". If you are to claim that you are better than Chen Bing, well..... I am not going to say that this was all-out "competitive" push hands. Anybody can see that it is not. But to assume Chen Bing did not try to avoid any of those throws is a bit short sighted. So really, he does not fit into either one of your assumptions.

You suggest that you are somehow above what is displayed. If you can do better than any of those three, I'd really, really like to meet you.

 

At the risk of interrupting the another scintillating internet debate, I'd like to offer a perception that hasn't been mentioned.

Young Bing needs to learn how to fall. Any novice Judoka or Aikidoka could tell him that the method he employs (repeatedly) in this clip is a short and sure path to broken bones and/or joint damage.

 

You're not kidding - how bad is that? Broken wrist here we come...

 

Here is one good example that the "external" style can help the so called "internal" style.

 

I watched this clip very carefully and you are totally correct!
Chen Bing lost his root as soon as it got going hard. He's energy reseated from his legs up to his center,look closely. Also Chen Bing's feet were all over the place and very light footed. He would have been better off just standing there with his energy sunk and did nothing!

That was a amazing show of pure skill by CXW.

 

You know, sometimes there are things you can't see - but the vast majority of the time what we're really missing is just the will and courage to honestly just say what we see - to just have it plain, and say, yeah, that's not really a resisiting opponent, is it?

It's actually unthinkable that any of CXW's juniors would seriously try to resist him or make him lose face - it doesn't even matter how you interpret the video; anyone who knows anything about Chinese etiquette knows that that could pretty much never happen.

 

Yes Chinese etiquette is very important but I don't think this was the case here. resisting? that's the point! your not suppose to resist. you are suppose to redirect energy so it either A is harmless or B puts you into a better position. _______________ ------------------___________________
The lines above which I cannot draw correctly on a computer are RIVER.
The first solid line is a river bank, the other solid line is the river bank on the other side. the broken line is the energy of the river between them. So solid lines are body mass which gain strength from earth. broken lines are what you are doing with it.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vn5MV3SP_sY"]YouTube - 00000005 restored[/ame]

I found a better way to show it. This is a real interpretation which is brought to real situations.

____________________
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____________________

 

Personally, I have zero tolerance for word play that's designed to make things less clear, not more clear. In this case, it's not so much making a simple idea pointlessly complicated, it's deliberately misleading yourself, and others, by changing the meaning of words.

By 'resisting' we're referring to the standard 'test' criteria of: 'A competent, suitable, genuinely resisting/attacking opponent.'

'Resist' means that they're not compliant - that they're not just 'going along with it' - NOT that they are using fluid taiji borrowing energy movements. They can resist how they want.

Having said that, push hands demo is push hands demo. What gets me is why people feelthe need to make stuff up. Why lie? Why embroider it in to something it's not? Yeah, sure lots of principles of CMA are being demonstrated - but they aren't being deminstrated in any kind of seriously resisted way, so we don't really know, from this, if those things really work.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying they wouldn't, just, let's start at least being honest about what we're seeing, and not make it more than what it is. People are brutally honest about and to me - but I'd much rather that than lie, because at least we're establishing that we're going to be honest, then in the long run, we're bound to find out what the real truth is that way.

 

Your a funny dude man!
I'm not trying to make things less clear! you owe me a hundred bucks.
taiji was created from viewing nature.
And what do you mean by lie,that's not funny. I never lie.

The point is that if you go back and watch those clips again you can clearly see that CXW had his feet firmly planted on the ground (energy comes from the ground) and chen bing did not draw enough energy with his feet (not firmly planted on the ground) so it was impossible for him to counter it.
The only time you really see CXW feet not on the ground is when there was no threat. or it was over.

If you mean by resisting, wild punching and kicking then what's the point of chen bing trying to go to a higher level in chen taiji?