Boxing work against karate?

Discussion in 'Boxing' started by INTERNAL BOXING, Jan 24, 2005.

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  1. NaughtyKnight

    NaughtyKnight Has yellow fever!

    Tyson is not right in the head. I dont think he knows what fear is anymore.

    Im not sure who would win, but it would be impossible to guess without them actually fighting, there are too many variables.
  2. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    i doubt that very much but you can dream can't you?

    tyson has seen so much more action and so much beatings in his lifetime. he has been in there with some of the hardest and fastest hitters around. his record as pointed out by sonshu speaks for itself. he will let fly big and fast ones. if those land, unless you've got the head of a rock, you'd be sitting on the mat.

    what you are argueing is that an mma fighter can beat a boxer. it's a rather pointless arguement because it boils down to the fighters, the fight, and lady luck.
  3. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    no, i'm not. i have however argued that before many times and we always come to the same conclusion with that one. i'm arguing Tyson in particular vs Liddle {at the moment} :D
  4. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    then let me make my pronouncement. see sonshu's analysis. it's on the money. i'll bet more money on a fighter that has seen and been in more high level fights. i'll bet the bank if that fighter has won most of those fights. i'll borrow money to bet on a fighter that has ended most of those fights decisively (kos).

    liddel couldn't rock wandy (who is a lhw) or any of pride fc's lhw. what makes you think he can go against mike tyson? he's a heavy weight. he's a heavy hitter. more importantly, he's been with heavy hitters. he can take the punishment. boxer have great cardio. tyson can last longer than most ufc fights last. he is used to punishment for longer and can dish out twice as long.

    i've done nhb and boxing. i've trained in both. i can tell you, beating a boxer isn't easy.
  5. NaughtyKnight

    NaughtyKnight Has yellow fever!

    I hear you here man. The last fight i was in, I had to fight this ammature boxer. He was very, very tough.
  6. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Thanks Shootodog

    He I do MMA and know its strengths and weakness and there are both in it. I just think if I was to call the fight from the bell.

    Tyson will steam in and unload on Chuck from the begining, Chuck will go down under the pressure and stay on his back or look to take Tyson down. This he may do but Tyson is gonna be one strong person and I do not feel Lidell has the depth of ground game to control someone like Tyson if it went to ground.

    I feel Chuck would be on his butt and out of the fight in under a minute. Another boxer perhaps Chuck would have a chance as the will not go off at such a mad pace. If Chuck has a better ground game I would say yes Chuck would get it but he is so far short of being able to make the difference up that I think he would get pulled apart.

    Put someone like Mark Coleman then it would be a different story.
  7. Florida Warlock

    Florida Warlock Banned Banned

    I know this post was from awhile ago, but I'm still compelled to reply to this. Someone may have already...

    I disagree with the statement that any style can work against any stle. I know someone who is a second degree blackbelt in karate, and he joined my JKD kwoon (before I did). He says that he learned more in this class in a couple weeks than in all the time he spent taking karate. I sparr with TKD students, and they couldn't do anything effective.

    I'm not going to go into my opinion about how ineffective those styles are, but I will say that some arts are for competition, and others are 'street arts'. Every story I've ever heard and every fight I've ever seen involving a karate student and a kung fu student of the same level has ended in the kung fu student beating the $hit out of his opponent, because they aren't using hard blocks that leave them really open and leave them succeptible to grapples, etc.

    Anyway, someone has probably said the equivalent.

    Two fighters, same skill level, 1 in a competition art; the other in a street art, the street fighter wins every time. This is just what I've seen and heard (and experienced when sparring with friends from other arts).

    This may only apply to JKD vs Karate/TKD, I've only studied those arts. Although Aikido would probably best karate & JKD as well. I don't know much about arts other than the above mentioned.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2005
  8. Nrv4evr

    Nrv4evr New Member

    Karate teaches you how to stay alive. It's nothing against you, but why do people keep comparing arts in the context of fighting? Karate IS SELF-DEFENSE. If you want to learn to fight in karate, take kyokushin. If an art is designed for counter-attacks and throws, why are you comparing it to an art that is designed for attacking? Obviously, a karate-ka cannot perform to his fullest against a "boxer," he is not trained to do so. A boxer is trained to WIN with speed and power. But have the boxer attack the karate guy wildly like a madman (just arms flailing, like most self-defense situations) and he will be down, most likely with a crushed throat or damaged eyes.
  9. Florida Warlock

    Florida Warlock Banned Banned

    Okay, well, I was meaning to compare all arts. So from what you've said there's a huge difference in the effectiveness of one arts vs another, depending on the purpose of the art, correct?

    You said karate is supposed to teach you to stay alive? Doesn't work against anything above the common street thug, then.

    Sorry, I just have a problem with how karate has hard blocks that leave you open when other arts parry and come in for the attack. I'm guessing that after a block someone in karate would strike? Well, the same thing happened there. But one looked better and was more effective and the other...
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2005
  10. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Shoot, damn. Almost every single story I've heard has the kung fu student getting beat up by ANY other style. One of my uncles told me stories when I was a young black belt of how they used to have gang fights, Judo verse Kung Fu. The Kung Fu guys would try to kick, the Judo guys would grab the kicks and go on to slaughter the kung fu guys.

    My instructor was witness to some of the Muay Thai verse Kung Fu fights in the early seventies. The first ones did not go well at all for Kung Fu, they lost every one of them out of 40 some fight he saw with the Kung Fu guys getting knocked out or unable to continue from broken arms and stuff from trying to block kicks.

    A person I knew more than twenty years ago was a decent martial artist, I think he was working on his red sash in Kung Fu. He got in a fight with four guys and was beating all of them, then a really large amature boxer came in to the fight and knocked the guy I knew out.

    But never was it said by anyone in the know that Kung Fu sucked or was ineffective. In fact, it was respected by all that told the stories.

    If a boxer is better than a karate person, it will be because of natural ability, hard work, and the experience with fighting different people that don't fight the same as them, that don't use the same techniques and strategies.

    If a karateka is better than a boxing person, it will be because of natural ability, hard work, and the experience with fighting different people that don't fight the same as them, that don't use the same techniques and strategies.

    In my opinion.
  11. Florida Warlock

    Florida Warlock Banned Banned

    Hmm. Well, I haven't heard the same. I take JKD, which is Gung Fu(?) And my Sifu said that Kung Fu and that have worked every time. However I believe this was against Karate and TKD.

    However I can see how Judo (or a similar art) would work against Kung Fu. The only person at my school that can take me down is my friend, who's a really good wrestler.

    I would be pretty nervous against a boxer. However, in JKD we throw really nice flurries of punches, or, at least the more experienced students do(one sash ahead of me and two years older).
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2005
  12. Florida Warlock

    Florida Warlock Banned Banned

    We, at the Kwoon I train at, don't block kicks. We parry them so that our opponent's back is to use. Then we choke, punch, sweep, whatever.

    The karate students that join try to block. The same goes with punches. After they block twice we grapple, pauk sow (dunno how to spell the terms that well..) and they've lost the use of their arms and are too close to kick. Then again, we fight third range (the distance between Neo and Morpheus in the training simulation :) ) and they're used to fighting first range (kicking distance.)
  13. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Well, yeah, I wasn't trying to bash any martial arts style. Kung Fu, JKD, etc. are better rounded than a lot of karate and TKD in the area of gaining experience fighting against people that don't fight the same as them, don't use the same strategies, and don't use the same techniques.

    A lot of karate and TKD training is only sparring/fighting against people that are the same, using the same strategies and techniques. Well until they start to cross train.

    When I was in karate, when we sparred in class, the higher belts might use kickboxing, boxing, judo, as well as karate in sparring. It was all open and legal as long as it was controlled not to try to kill each other. It was just for training, no points, no stopping the fight, it was just training.
  14. Nrv4evr

    Nrv4evr New Member

    Um.... you obviously have never heard of a soft block in karate... Karate, other than kung fu, started the parrying. Why do you think all those karate movies have their HANDS OPEN? That's because they use soft blocks, not those "hard blocks" they use in white belt classes. Spar with me, my sensei, or any other experienced karateka. We're not going to use hard blocks. We'll grab your jab out of the air and go for the punch to the head, or if you try to kick, we'll sidestep and parry the kick.
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Yeah, when I had trained years in karate, I was still very rigid. It took me years more in Aikido and some BJJ to become more agile and supple. I did have a bad habit built in to try to block everything that came in, come to think of it, rather than use better footwork concepts and intercepting/jamming or redirecting attacks, and covering vitals.

    But years later I did start to pick up what karate was more about. Almost all blocks in karate are really attacks. The idea is that you use your attacks as your defenses also, combined with good footwork to evade taking a full force hit in return. Karate was like fire, and a tactic of fire is to overwhelm the opponent. All those blocks seen in karate, with the exception of a few used against weapons as last ditch defenses and deflection blocks, should really be attacks to distract and/or hurt the opponent.

    There should be no two blocks in a row from karate following the concepts of fire. It should be attack, attack, attack, continuously with good techniques and power strikes to vital areas. The fight in theory should be over in seconds once the hits start coming.

    That is what is meant by "one strike ends the fight" in karate.

    But that is the philosophy, not to represent it as the best way or the only way.
  16. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    i think many people think that basics are the actual way to fight with karate, which is NOT the case, ABSOLUTELY NOT.

    we don't block while fighting, we parry to the side and follow up, or we grab and pull, or sometimes break in some cases, then follow up.

    in sparring, we use the complete opposite of the "hard blocks" you talk about, we parry, soft and fast, then follow up with strikes. but since we practice hard blocks, we are able to parry effectively becvause we can block hard, so we learn to parry hard.

    also in a fight, as has been mentioned in a couple threads(i remember one i think was a news article about a BJJ woman defending herself), you don't use your style, you use the techniques you learn, but not your style, you might be a karateka and use a wushu movement, or be a judoka and use muay thai strikes, so you don't use your specific learned style, you use what you know, and what you need to keep yourself alive, who cares if your crescent kicks don't come out alright, if you can deflect an arm at long distance with it and follow with a hook kick, who cares if someone throws a knife hand at your nose, with you being unable to block it, when you can bite the other's fingers off, grab his arm and break it, etc etc etc.

    you only use individual moves combined with your specific strategy to fight, you don't use your style.
    if you realize that, and know plenty of applicable things, you can use moves for purposes unthought of by many, and use any strike from double or triple the normal positions in which it's traditionally used.

    if a karateka has a hard style of training, and can't defend well, he/she hasn't got a good understanding of what fighting means, only basics and sparring, which are only tools to use as a boost, not the ultimate way of doing it right

    just my 2 cents

    Fish Of Doom
  17. Florida Warlock

    Florida Warlock Banned Banned

    I wasn't aware of much of that. Blackbelts try to spar me out of the Kwoon/Dojo/Dojang or show my Sifu how they'd react to a strike and they use hard blocks.

    Sorry; I didn't mean to down the styles, just my opinion, which, has changed now. I guess everyone I've sparred with need to train more, because right now they're getting their @sses kicked.
  18. Nrv4evr

    Nrv4evr New Member

    Then these blackbelts are fools, because only fools use hard blocks to defend against strikes. If you watch black belts spar, you will notice they mostly get in close, grab each other's hands, then try to use their free hand to attack. For blocking, they merely, with a twist of the wrist, sidestep the incoming strike, and send you careening in another direction. As well, some black belts, including this one blackbelt, I cannot remember his name, it was Sensei Manara or something... He could duck a jab and grab it, and then throw you onto the ground using an aikido move.

    Deflection, parries, jamming, grabbing, dodging and forearm covering of vital blocks are much more effective than hard blocks. Hard blocks are good for developing arm speed, and they, like rebel wado said, are actually more attacks. (high block is actually kind of like a hammer fist, except you drive your forearm into the side of the person's head)
  19. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Are you for real - it is both the style and the art, you can be good at one part and poor at the other and still be only ok. You need both to be good and street vs competition arts it is not 100% the case for a "street art" winning as there are MCDojo "street" schools.

    I for the record comp arts are VERY effective on the street provided the package overall is good.

    Good instructor
    Good student
    Good style
    Good luck

    = Good fighter in general
  20. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    no i should be sorry i almost screwed up again and sounded insulting.
    but at my dojo(and particularly in my training at home) we train like that, if you can do a superfast hard block, you can apply superfast strong soft blocks, and my sensei in particular is top notch in parrying, once he made me spar and he just kept brushing my arms to the side before i could even move, as soon as we started he jumped towards me and began batting my arms so fast i couldn't move, and everytime i moved to keep him from doing that he just folowed at the exact same time, so i just kept eveding as much as i could(which isn't much :cry: ) while he continually told me to hit him and i coun't even move:cry: .
    the theory about not fighting with specifically your styles is something i reallized after reading posts here on the board, specially the comments on the Woman uses BJJ to fend off would be rapist thread today, but i always tried to round up my training at home, and we train a bit of locks, grabs, the tiniest thinnest bit of groundfighting and a couple painful pressure points at the dojo, and we're always taught how NOT to do the techniques(my favourite's one where sensei was explaining Jiyu Kumite, free sparring, which is a short range full contact we-butcher-each-other type of sparring, and he said that "you're not gonna do all those fancy stances, perfect technique and high kicks and stuff in the street", as he demonstrated that kind of things), then he went into a horse stance deefense while saying "and then you do a horse stance and BOOM!, you take one in the middle".

    oncee again it's me who should be sorry for speaking so harshly all the time

    Fish Of Doom
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