Both knees have torn meniscus :(

Discussion in 'Injuries and Prevention' started by Saved_in_Blood, Jul 30, 2014.

  1. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    Won't be training for a while... just got my MRI results back today. Now it's off to the orthopedist to see what he recommends. Pretty bummed out about it. I can do no exercise that involves strain on the knees.
  2. Rhythmkiller

    Rhythmkiller Animo Non Astutia

    Well you need to take it easy then and do as the dr. orders.

  3. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    That sucks to hear dude. Presumably you can still punch the heavy bag at least?
  4. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I'm pretty that strains the knees.
  5. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    See how it goes. Worst case scenario is surgery, where they slice off the damaged bits of the meniscus (depending where the damage is)

    All you can do is rest and take it easy. I suggest seated based upper body weights or something. Get that chest/shoulders/arms pumping!!
  6. Phantom Power

    Phantom Power Valued Member

    By unhappy coincidence I just had surgery yesterday to remove the tear in the cartilage in one of my knees! It hurts but a lot less than it did when I did the damage, so I'm feeling confident that after a few weeks things will improve. I followed my physiotherapist's advice to build the various leg muscles up prior to the op and so far the ones I've been given post op seem quite easy and not particularly painful.

    Just saying this so you don't despair, it may not be as bad as you fear right now.
  7. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    I'm just not used to sitting and doing nothing... I was always riding or going to class or some sort of exercise. I do random sets of push-ups to failure 2 or 3 days a week... usually it winds up being 250 ish reps total... I guess i'll have to up that. I already feel bored.

    I'd like to be able to work the heavy bag, but I can do no pivoting or anything that would put pressure on the knees... they said specifically "no exercise"... this sucks.
  8. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    throw in a broken ankle and been there done that.

    It is not easy and I cannot stress this enough, you have to listen to the MD on this and you have to fight that Martial artist urge to train and let it heal.

    I did not and it was a 5 year ordeal (braces, crutches, cortisone, cane and limping) that kept me out of training. I thought I was listening and I was...a little. I would feel better and say to myself, "I'm better, time to train" and inevitably I would reinjure myself. I am just getting back to anything that might be referred to as serious training this past few months.

    Do what the doctors say and do not do anything without their OK.
  9. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    It sucks SiB but chin up and do as the Doc orders, you'll be back before you know it :)

  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Martial Arts is a marathon not a sprint - take the time to heal, read, play xbox and come back recovered
  11. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    I'd torn a hamstring months ago and I almost went looney from the lack of activity. I can only imagine how yours will be. Especially since you've been active. After your surgery it will be worse because until then you really won't see the full spectrum of activities that you do that put some sort of torsion or strain on the knees.

    So prepare in advance as to how you are going to approach everyday things and how you will compensate for the loss of your knees with regards to maintaining your fitness. If you wait till you're flat on your back before you work things out, it will be more difficult and frustrating.

    For example, you won't be able to hit the heavy bag but if you have one of those office chairs that rotate freely at the seat but remain stationary at the base, you can place a reflex-bag ( water/sand weighted base ) linear to your jab arm and lower the bag till it reaches your seated height on the bag mounting poll. You will still be able to rotate ( to a degree ) for your punch but it won't involve your knees.

    A little awkward to get used to but it'll provide some exercise. Just make sure that you are able to raise the seat of the chair high enough so that your feet don't touch the floor and you end up putting strain on your knees.

    That's just one idea, but you need to have your 'detour' mapped out ahead of time as you will be dealing with recovery, depression and the like after your surgery and won't want to bugger with it then.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2014
  12. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    This is what I was thinking of when I asked about punching the bag actually. Obviously a lot will still depend on how you brace your legs when you punch though.

    Essentially this at the end of the day. A few months of inconvenience and depression is really quite little compared to long term complications.

    Also, learn to shin kick someone with your arms. :p
  13. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    You want to try to avoid bracing your legs as much as possible, else you will instinctively begin to put stress on the knees.

    That's why advanced planning is important. The standard telescoping bushing for the office chair isn't long enough to raise the chair enough to clear one's feet off the floor, but there are medical-office chairs, dental-tech chairs, bar-stools with a free-rotating base that should do the job.

    The legs essentially dangle free (or lightly resting on a foot brace ) and the fixed point for rotation is one's bottom in the chair. One rotates their seated hips in the opposite direction of the jab and then rotates the hips slightly the other way when retracting the punch. The counter-rotation of the seated hips also keeps one from having to strain to maintain your seated position.

    It sounds funky but I've found it can actually work. The most important thing is a free rotating seat on a stable fixed base and it eliminates stress on the knees as the fixed point of rotation is now above the knees.

    Little things like that, whatever they may be, worked out ahead of time may seem like a lot of trouble for nothing but they'll really be appreciated when the time comes.

    Maybe certain types of water-based sports might help. We need Van Z and Steve's input here.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2014
  14. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    Oh I get that. But like you said the standard office chairs usually aren't tall enough, which means you can't help but put your legs in a position/angle where, whether intentional or otherwise, you end up bracing to a certain degree.

    Like the idea of the bar stool though.
  15. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    come on man, you know I can't read!
  16. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    I'm going to start elbowing people now
  17. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Sorry to hear that

    But if you think that sucks, wait til you add 15-20 more years
  18. Guitar Nado

    Guitar Nado Valued Member

    Sorry hear about your knees SIB...:eek:

    Any idea how it happened?

    Maybe there is some Martial arts training you can do that won't impact your knees? Not sure what it would be offhand...everything I can think of has some sort of footwork. I think even Wing Chun drills are in a stance that seems like it would be hard on the knees (could be totally wrong about that). Maybe there is some sort of modified training your instructor could come up with that doesn't put any stress on your knees?

    Anyways, hope you get better soon..take it easy and get better
  19. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    It's ok... what really can I do about it you know? The worst part I think is the cramping I get around the knees... I don't really know why I get that, but I do either way.

    I am not sure what caused it. I want to say that I didn't notice the issue until I started kicking the heavy bag. It could be due to just weak knees, poor form, even the pivots might have had a hand in it. Really anything can tear it though... everyday stuff that you never think of can cause it so while I've tried to pinpoint when it happened... idk.

    Luckily the ortho I am seeing tomorrow is also a sports medicine doctor as well. He's worked with 3 pro football teams as an assistant years ago, so he might be able to help me with finding what I can do to correct the issue, and as much as I want to continue to shin kick people... I might have to go hands and elbows only and put more emphasis on defense and head movement.... actually

    I could set up my slip bag and just practice head movement everyday while in a chair right?
  20. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    Here is an interesting article. Makes me think that I'd rather just get a full knee replaced than these surgeries:

    By Dr. Mercola

    Arthroscopic knee surgery is one of the most common unnecessary surgeries performed today—along with back and hip surgeries, pacemakers, cardiac angioplasties, hysterectomies, and Cesarean sections.

    Several studies over the past decade have highlighted questions about arthroscopic knee surgery, and now, you can add one more to the pile. The meniscus inside your knee is a thin crescent-shaped disc of cartilage that serves as a cushion between your femur and tibia and helps stabilize your knees.

    Over time, your meniscus can develop tears, especially if you have arthritis. The standard orthopedic surgeon's intervention for meniscal tears is performing an arthroscopic partial meniscectomy—trimming the torn meniscus and smoothing the jagged edges of what remains, which assumes the tear is what's causing your pain. However, that may be a faulty assumption.

    Knee Surgery No Better Than Sham

    This latest study, conducted in Finland, examined 146 patients with degenerative meniscal tears (caused by "wear and tear," not acute injury).1 Researchers divided patients into two groups.

    One group received the standard surgery, and the other received a "sham surgery"—in other words, a fake or placebo intervention where no actual surgery takes place. The study excluded people with knee arthritis, because they tend not to benefit as much from meniscus surgery and the researchers wanted to ascertain if the surgery helps under "ideal circumstances."2

    The sham surgery involved the physician's making an incision and poking around without any actual cartilage shaving or cutting. Many of the patients were given epidural anesthesia, so they were awake, making it necessary for surgical staff to use their "theatrical talents" to pull off a believable sham surgery.

    The outcome? One year later, both groups reported equally favorable responses to the procedure—primarily, reduction in knee pain. In the end, the researchers concluded that the real knee surgeries offered no better outcomes than the sham surgeries.

    Arthroscopic surgery on the meniscus is the most common orthopedic procedure in the US, and according to this study, is performed about 700,000 times a year to the tune of $4 billion. Any surgeon who tells you this is the best or only option for your osteoarthritic knee pain will not have a leg to stand on when you show him or her all of the evidence to the contrary.

    Arthroscopic Surgeries Have an Embarrassing Track Record

    Prior to the Finnish study, there were already three prior studies of note that should have orthopedic surgeons rethinking how they treat their knee patients:
    1.A landmark study in Texas set the ball rolling back, over ten years ago, in 2002. The study involved 180 participants randomly assigned to either have the real operation or sham surgery, in which surgeons simply made cuts in their knees. The real surgery turned out to have no benefits over the sham procedure.3 This was a classic multi-center (including Harvard) double blind controlled trial that clearly showed the surgery was a $3 billion waste.
    2.In 2008, a Canadian study compared the benefits of physical and medical therapy to arthroscopic surgery for osteoarthritis of the knee. Researchers concluded that physical and medical therapy provided equal benefit to surgery.4
    3.In 2013, researchers compared the functional outcomes of physical therapy versus arthroscopy for patients with meniscal tears. They found that arthroscopy followed by postoperative physical therapy had no benefit over physical therapy alone.5

    See the pattern emerging here? It's hard to miss! Eighty percent of meniscal tears develop from wear and tear over time.6 If you have pain in your knees from ordinary activities or arthritis, you may be better off skipping the surgery and going straight to physical therapy.

    Or better yet, get some treatments with an infrared laser that I discussed in detail with Dr. Harrington.

    Of course, there are other non-invasive therapies that can be helpful as well. But it's becoming quite clear that a torn meniscus—at least, the wear-and-tear variety—is not going to be helped by a "surgical trim." Surgeries come with all sorts of risks, and there is no point in exposing yourself to these without some clear advantage.

    If you have a torn meniscus from an accident or injury, the scenario may be different, but I would still recommend you getting a second or even third opinion before going under the knife.

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