blade culture

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by ptkalista, Jun 17, 2007.

  1. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Well as many times as they fought I would say they did learn something from them.

    The blade is a good thing, but in America it is the stick and will stay the stick if you are wanting insurance and ability to teach I'd think. Most are not to keen on being cut and want to learn to defend onesself, to be cut while practicing is counter productive. Time off the job is not a good deal.
    Most in the locations I go to think I am intense LOL... I am pretty tame compared to you it seems. ;)

    Warrior cultures have always been counter productive to life. Good thing too because we need to cut back on the population growth anyway :p So lets just mention that the true warrior culture, is very brutal and not the way of life.

    It is the way of Death, one of the reasons I have mentioned the Goddess of
    Kali, is the right term for Kali (the art).

    It is about life, death and time.

    Last edited: Jun 22, 2007
  2. ptkalista

    ptkalista Banned Banned

    So you agree with doing away of the true FMA's roots and settling with stick twirling and calling that the new FMA?

    How many here is skilled with the bow/arrow, knife, blow gun, or whip or even how to track and hunt an animal for food? I'm sure not too many will know and when the very few die who know and they leave no students behind the skills will too die off. Then basically the skills that have sustained human existence (and yes destruction) will be lost. This is why there is no honor or morality anymore because why do we have to know how to track/hunt or use the blow gun or bow/arrow when we can just go to the supermarket and get our rice and meat there. We've become so lazy that we grow our beef so we don't have to hunt it and if you look at a pig or cattle farm there is no difference from how the Jews looked in concentration camps. We settle for eating slave meat because we are too lazy to hunt because we have forgotten to. You take the true FMA which is a free proud roaming carabao in the Philippines and when it arrives in America or Europe it becomes this tame docile cattle ready to be butchered by seminar peddlers. If you've ever eaten game compared to meat you eat in the market full of toxins, the flavor is very different.:woo:
  3. ptkalista

    ptkalista Banned Banned

    They learned how to defeat them, that's totally different from learning from them. You seem to be the only one who understands the value of the blade here, why is this?
  4. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    I believe those who are good enough and can teach it, should. I hate to see some lameooos do it though, those who are only teaching the stick, some are pathetic doing that, heck some don't even teach the garrote. :D

    You mention:
    So you agree with doing away of the true FMA's roots and settling with stick twirling and calling that the new FMA?

    I'll say, not.

    We have a special class for "espada y daga" Cabales style.

    You may not think that is true FMA though.

    Not many show up for it even though it is all with practice blades. But I believe we may be going more towards the blade. The location I go to my instructor will be at the ring of fire in Vegas with Guro Dan Inosanto and others that are into the ancient art of the blade, "Silat style" this week-end. Be interesting what will evolve from that.

    Like I mentioned earlier I have the book by Guro Tony Somera about GM Leo Giron's view on the "Blade", while he was in the Army fighting in PI during WW ll, he was very thankful for his "Pinoy buddies" who knew how to "swing the blade". He had many that were protecting him and he also used it very effectivly he mentions.

    Of all the things GM Giron and his Fan of FMA, only one book is to the blade, and it was late in his life span, so others would know about it. It was made public after he passed away.

    Last edited: Jun 22, 2007
  5. ptkalista

    ptkalista Banned Banned

    GM Cabales learn from GM Dizon who was one of the best in the Philippines. Serrada is a blade art, if you look at the movement, weapon size, range it is all blade. Just don't forget this fact and exchange it for short sticks and then believe that it's a stick art. Don't forget.
  6. ptkalista

    ptkalista Banned Banned

    GM Giron used the blade. This is what I'm talking about all the Originals used the blade why would you choose to go the opposite way and make the true FMA into a kid's art? We all know that if you target your teaching to women, children, computer geeks we'll get money, but I say let the TKDers or Karate experts give blackbelts to little 5 yr olds let them hold after school programs, the true FMA isn't for kids.
  7. dyak_stone

    dyak_stone Valued Member

    9 pages in 2 days? Quite a lively thread now isn't it?

    Your statements seem imply that you do not believe in any form of training using sticks at all. Is this really what you believe?

    If so, how then would you recommend sparring to be done (conceptually, at least)? At a high level of intensity, or with light or no contact? What implements would you recommend? Live blades? Blunt blades? Aluminum trainers? Wooden/resin replicas?

    I believe that, for real and usable skill in weapons do be developed, a good deal of sparring should be done do develop proper timing, distancing, and resilience to pain. This we do with sticks with limited armor, even when we spar to simulate blades, so that we don't have to pull our cuts/thrusts too much.

    On a slight tangent, what might you recommend to law enforcement officers that train in stick-based curricula of FMA? That they should stop training with "weapons of slaves"? Would you recommend a bolo training curriculum to people who use expandable batons and nightsticks? Would you recommend that our local Barangay Public Safety Officers (otherwise known as tanod, literally
    "protector") should drop the arnis sticks that they use and equip themselves with blades instead?

    Please take some time to view these photos of a PTK training camp here in the Philippines, taken by an acquaintance of mine, a member of the Manila Pitbulls. (And let me add, they are quite a good natured group of people that are held in high regard by FMA circles here in Manila.)

    The main focus of PTK training is in the use of the bolo and the knife, I believe. However, as evidenced by these photos, they also do see the value of drilling and sparring with rattan sticks. Do you?

    I believe that the true warrior must not hold on too tightly to his blade, or he might lose himself once he loses it. The true warrior must be the sharpest blade himself, so that whatever he holds in his hand will be the sharpest blade, in the time of need.
  8. ptkalista

    ptkalista Banned Banned

    No, you are missing the whole point of what I am trying to convey. Return to the blade doesn't literally mean all blade all the time. It is a philosophy to return to the technology our forefathers left us which is that the true FMA is about the blade, it isn't about the rattan stick or the rubber/foam stick or the kendo masks or the fancy karate-like uniforms. It is about the blade. If you know the blade you are going to know the stick (if you know how to drive a Ferrari you are obviously going to know how to drive a small Hyundai). But if you just train with the stick and think that the true FMA is just that then you are mistaken (not every Hyundai driver will know how to handle a Ferrari, he will have to undergo retraining because the car is too powerful). Once you know the blade you can always go down to a stick, but not vice versa. Our ancestors created this very well researched technology and paid in blood we cannot let non-warriors redevelope our true FMA to a simple stick twirling course. The middle road some might think is to use sticks but to pretend they are sword, this is good if you eventually evolve to the sword, but dangerous if you just continue pretending never holding a blade, never knowing the tasty flavor of it.

    Very nice photos, thanks for sharing them.
    I believe more "FMAers" should definitely train in the Philippines so they will know the flavor of the true FMA.
  9. Airyu

    Airyu Valued Member

    Wow!! Unbelievable the amount of attention this is getting.

    Blade culture, what is blade culture, is it the use and understanding of the blade? Respect of the weapon, teaching the use of the blade what exactly is it then? Everyone will have a slightly different perspective on this philosophy.

    PTKalista - I respect your unabashed nature of what you perceive as the way, but it is not everyones way and nor should it. The Warrior Culture fostered in many nations at many different time periods emphasized similar philosophies and tactics that allowed one to better the odds at surviving on the battlefield. Times and technology, economic and environmental conditions change and each warrior culture developed to adapt to these various pressures and conditions to suit their requirements. You mention very famous warrior cultures from the Vikings, to the Samurai, and again each of these cultures grew independent of each other and rose to prominence with their particular arts. Some have evolved or even died off, but that does not mean that the ideals of these great ways has died. Beyond what you practice, which I assume is Pekiti Tirsia Kali...there are other truths that exist for other people. From Black Eagle escrima, Kalis Ilustrisimo, Balintawak, Doce Pares, Dekiti Tirsia, Sayoc Kali, Modern Arnis etc. etc. etc.... Each of these and the hundreds of other arts is still within the warrior culture that exists today. Not all emphasize the daily use of the blade, and not all people want to learn the use of the blade but are comfortable with the stick. The stick is still a lethal weapon, not always the most lethal but lethal in the hands of a trained practitioner. Cracking a coconut is easily done with a stick (first peel it back and try it yourself), this could easily represent a human skull and I have smashed many in practice.(yes I have also utilized a blade in similar practice sessions)

    Talking big, or posting big does not a warrior make. It does give the perception that you take your training seriously (which we all should) but as you say, you are not a master and not qualified to discuss matters of personal training with others. Does this also mean that you are not qualified to make judgements on other arts or practices? ex Shooting: how many hours do you put into your shooting practice each week? How many rounds, what drills and practices do you implement? Have you been hit by simunitions, paintballs or any other "safe" training device? Then judging that it is a not a skill based part of a warriors education says many things about you. Tuhon Gaje and I have spoken many, many times although I do not train in Pekiti Tirsia any longer, I still respect him and those who practice PTK. So you know I was one of the founding PTK pitbulls in the USA with Jeff Davidson in 1999, but yet there are other arts that intrigued me and I study them further from around the globe to increase my understanding of blade arts, FMA, and martial arts in general.

    I fully agree that the Blade and Stick are different and the same. Without exploring both sides of the coin any practitioner will miss out in their growth process. But training in either does not invalidate the training on the other side.

    Steve L.
  10. kalislash

    kalislash Valued Member

    I am agree with Airyu with his statement. We also trying to do such sword-sparring but how he can be sure the safety measure about using this weapons.Metal armour can be a good stuff but is too heavy ,doing combat drill can do it better even the Gladiators used wooden swords for their practice.... MABUHAY Gat kalislash
  11. dyak_stone

    dyak_stone Valued Member

    ptkalista, I think I now see where you are coming from. True, there is always room for quality control, in FMA as well as other MA. I too have had my share of cringing at the sight of what I would consider as ineffective technique, or ineffective execution by people who focus too much on complicated and flashy movements, while disregarding basic principles that are essential.

    However, if you are already an experienced practitioner of FMA, I hope you do realize that diversity is a good thing that we have going. Having just one style, consolidating into one train of thought, I believe would be detrimental to the FMA. Besides, with the number of languages, dialects, and ethnic groups that we have, Filipino culture just cannot be homogenic. Thus, why should you insist that we all should follow just one path? Why should all stick based FMA cease in their practice? Are there no high caliber stick-based FMA practitioners? In the same lines, aren't there also bad quality blade-based practitioners that need to completely rethink their training?

    And again, how then could we apply FMA to modern day civilian law enforcement and peacekeeping duties if none of us specialize in stick fighting? Do you mean that a blade based training curriculum would better suited for training to fight with a yantok/telescopic baton/nightstick than using a specialized stick based curriculum?

    I could not have said it better myself.
  12. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Yes, I agree to this. They start with the stick to learn then they can go to the blade.

    But here is an important thought:
    They did train the young to use the blade for even a 10 year old with a blade can cut and kill.
    The people who are not willing to be controlled use their children to fight, they figure if they win (by forfeiting the child) they can replace them later.

    Sort of hard to explain for they put the parent at a higher position than the child. Not hard to understand really. Remove the parent and you have many children that are not taken care of.

    Remove the child and they can be replaced.

    Sort of like "own the stallion" sell the offspring/lambs were for slaughter, not the Ram.

    Survivalist, would understand.

    The children will be fodder I'd think, sad but true. Who go to war? The young.

  13. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    I stated clearly and repeatedly that I wanted a description of how you train. A laundry list of what you actually do in a class. How on earth did you take that to mean "actual fights"?

    Well, you've repeatedly said "all blade, all the time." If you weren't trying to convey that, actually saying it (a lot) probably wasn't the way to go.

    I think this is where I disagree with you. I don't regard FMA as being about the blade. I see it as being about adaptation. About instilling a set of skills that allows someone to use whatever's available and appropriate. As others have said, teaching police to use swords is inappropriate and they wouldn't have them available anyway. Guro Sam Tendencia instead taught police in California to use the stick. Because it was the tool at hand and because it achieved the goal they had set before them.

    That's FMA to me. That adaptability.

    I also disagree that using a sword is the same as knowing how to use a stick. Yeah, a good swordsman will probably do just fine with a stick. But then, so would a decent baseball player. But the mechanics are different. And that's not a one-way street. There are skills that work for a sword that don't for a stick. Drawing across a target is a lethal cut with a blade. But near useless with a stick. The setups are different. There's lots of crossover. But both are skills to be learned.

    I couldn't agree more that FMA shouldn't be reduced to stick twirling. I too cringe whenever I see someone learn a few sinawali sequences and then bill themselves as teaching FMA. And, having recently taken a couple of KI classes, I can freely admit that my Doce Pares and Modern Arnis stick training have still left me with a lot to learn about the sword. And that's fine. It doesn't invalidate the stick. It just means they aren't the same. And, seriously, it's not rocket science to say that a cutting edge and blunt force trauma are different. I've never really bought into the literal idea that the stick prepares you to use a sword. But that's a far leap from "the stick is useless." (Or, in your version, good only for scratching your back.)

  14. Limbas

    Limbas Valued Member

    FMA wasn't/isn't about the blade, if it is then its the most primitive and backward fighting technology(?) in the world; criminal at best, jurassic at worst. That inny tinny blade is just a tool baby. best to show when you don't wanna fight or when you want money fast. Quit while you're still in one piece, your antagonistic stance against all other true martial arts is an open invitation to similar reptilians who would be too willing to stick it to you.
  15. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    a chef. they have better knives and better knife skills. ;)

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