Best of the best

Discussion in 'Boxing' started by maressa, Dec 27, 2014.

  1. puma

    puma Valued Member

    Ha! Yeah right! Like bum of the month. Ali was great no doubt, but there will be loads he fought you have never heard of. Floyd is a 5 weight champ. Come on. Be fair.
     
  2. puma

    puma Valued Member

    Sorry, that was in reply to page one. Didn't see there was another page.
     
  3. puma

    puma Valued Member

    This is what I was replying to.

    I'm not just saying this to defend Floyd, but I don't think many of the people Ali beat could be competitive against someone like, say, Lennox Lewis. I think the Klitschko brothers would also eat most of them for breakfast. (Providing Wladimir doesn't catch one because he hasn't the best whiskers). Again, it's different times. But Frazier for example, look what Foreman did to him. A young Tyson would eat him alive like he did his son. Bowe, Holyfield, Lewis, even David Tua who couldn't win a title, would destroy him. He wouldn't go past 2 rounds with any of them except possibly Holyfield. He also didn't have that many fights. Take the 3 away he had with Ali, and well, his record isn't amazing. Good, in his time, but he would be too small, too limited now.

    Floyd, on a purely boxing point of view, operates with a technically higher level of boxer than Ali did, bar Maidana. Cotto is far cleverer than Frazier for example. And Ali himself wasn't great on the inside. He just used to hold behind the head. Mayweather, give him credit, does have everything covered.

    My point is, okay, you like Ali. Fine. He was great. But you got to be fair. To say a fighter than has achieved what Floyd has, hasn't fought anyone at all that was any good isn't just disrespectful to him, or all the champs he has fought, but is disrespectful to the sport itself. And garbage. And for the record , Pacquiao has avoided him, and Floyd can, and always could beat him all day long. And even if the unthinkable happened and he lost that fight, he is still an all-time great. All 5 weight champions are, regardless of how biased you are against them.
     
  4. puma

    puma Valued Member

    Going back to Hearns, who was mentioned previously. I agree he, probably more than anyone maybe, would have a chance with Mayweather. I just think Floyd will find a way to win. But regardless, Hearns was a fighter, that in his weight(s), would be at least competitive at any time in history. How about Hearns v Robinson? But I am not convinced I could say the same about Ali. I just can't see him with some of the giants of today, especially when we saw some of the dreadful fighters he struggled with. Ali-Lewis? Nah, I just can't see it. Not tot take away his magnificent achievements, but times have changed since he fought. A lot. Even David Haye is bigger than Ali, and he is regarded as small.
     
  5. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    The biggest knock against the motor city cobra against Robinson is much the same problem he encountered in the Leonard fight, Robinson could, and would, bang.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2015
  6. puma

    puma Valued Member

    Yes he could. I was watching a video of him a couple of months ago and he was vicious when he had someone going.

    There was a weird exercise on the video where Robinson kneed himself in the head. He'd lift his knee to the side and basically head butt it, then repeat on the other side. Must have been a reason, but seemed a bit odd! Hell of a fighter though.
     
  7. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works

    Fine be fair, but suggesting for example that Joe Frazier was a nobody is absolute hogwash. Yes, Foreman put a hurt on Frazier but that does not somehow disqualify Frazier from being one of the greatest of all time. Frazier was nearing the end of his career and Foreman was in the start of his. The rest of the fighters I mentioned, Floyd Patterson, Ken Norton, etc. were also some of the greatest in their division.

    And there is more to this, Frazier knew what Foreman was and still fought him. Back then the best fought the best they could find. Hell, I will give it to James Toney for doing that over anyone who just dodges people.

    I hope Floyd gets in the ring with Manny. And let me say this, I think half of Floyd's problems are the same as Ali's. They both have hand problems and this destroys your knockout power. I am not saying Floyd is not a great fighter, but I think that titles like "greatest" need to be tested against all comers.
     
  8. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    Yeah, i can't for the life of me work out what that would do though.
     
  9. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    I don't really agree with the idea that Frazier's record was lacking at all, when context is applied he was a hell of a lot more game to fight the best at any given time than Ali was (the only two top guys of the era he didn't fight were Norton, who was his sparring partner, and Ronnie Lyle), but the main reason he faltered against Foreman had little to do with age as much as it did style. Frazier's whole style was predicated on being in the firing line of Big George, who is without question one of the hardest hitters in the sport, but then Foreman was always a freak of nature, as he established in his second career. But that isn't really a knock against Frazier, he was as hard as a coffin nail and for being knocked down eight times by someone so heavy handed, he got back to his feet every time.

    But i must say, the nostalgia of back then being some sort of golden age, where there were few fights that couldn't materialize, is kind of a bit muddled, as a champion who ducks contenders, particularly at heavyweight is rather rare. Holmes took on pretty much everyone (sure he never fought Coetzee, but that was never going to be competitive in the slightest), Tyson before Holyfield broke his will took on all comers (cept Lewis, but people were clamoring for a new weight class when he turned up), and Holy himself never shied away from a scrap (although he went with the crowd on Lewis until there was no one else). Even today Klitschko is more often than not fighting top five contenders, and when he isn't its usually because he's being railroaded into a mandatory defense.

    As for a Mayweather-Pacquiao fight, i'd love to see it too, but short of Floyd moving up in weight, there aren't too many top people around he hasn't beaten or outlasted, and outside of Pacquiao, there aren't too many tangible threats left to him, and that level of dominance has to count for something.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2015
  10. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works

    It was earlier in this thread that someone suggested that Frazier was not a significant victory for Ali's legacy, and that what Foreman did to Frazier was the reason. But I would compare that to the pounding that James Toney gave Evander Holyfield. It didn't suddenly delete Holyfield's contribution to the sport.
     
  11. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    While i do not see the Frazier fights as a significant milestone for Ali, it's mostly because the only time Ali clearly won was in a very ugly fight that was poorly refereed. (he was a beaten man in Manila, and had Frazier's corner not stopped him i don't see the judges giving to to him) But to say that Foreman had any bearing on Frazier in Ali's narrative is ignoring the fact that they were hardly comparable events, although, to be honest, Ali's legacy pays little attention to the details of his accomplishments, and more reflect his position in modern culture.
     
  12. puma

    puma Valued Member

    No one said Frazier was a nobody. And no one said he wasn't a significant contribution to Ali's record. Quite the opposite. I said he was great in his era, but I don't believe he could compete with some of the fighters that came later.

    I think Floyd has pretty much fought everyone he should. And making fights isnt all that easy. I'm actually reading Fraziers book now where he talks about this. And that was back then. Other than Pacquiao, the only other fighter I would have liked to see Mayweather fight that he hasn't was Paul Williams. I don't think you win that many titles by ducking people. It's not possible.
     
  13. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    Yeah, damned shame what happened to Williams.
     
  14. puma

    puma Valued Member

    How is he doing? Haven't heard anything about him for ages.
     
  15. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    As far as i know he has been going through rehab, but earlier claims of him walking again were apparently rather optimistic, on the plus side though, he invested his earnings wisely, so he's doing rather better than most fighters in his position would have done.
     
  16. puma

    puma Valued Member

    That's good he has been advised well.
     

Share This Page