Dear All, Being a iai/kenjutsu nut, I am very interested in the formal study of swordsmanship in the various ninjutsu orgs. I am not really interested in the 'well, that technique can work here' mentality, but specific techniques within the nine schools that the various orgs practice around the world. How many techniques do you practice? What schools are they from? (this thread was created to avoid derailing another unrelated thread, by the way!)
Scott, As I mentioned in the previous thread, I have not been exposed to specific iai methods from all the nine Bujinkan ryu-ha. I have only been shown iai from four ryu-ha by Dr. Kacem Zoughari at his various seminars. Specifically, the ones I practice are from Shinden Fudo ryu and Takagi Yoshin ryu, as those are the ones I actually practiced with Mr. Zoughari personally.( I feel safe in practicing them on my own as he took the time to ensure that I was doing them correctly ) I think it's worth mentioning that, although I have practiced with my teacher what I understood to be batto kata from Takagi Yoshin ryu, it is conceivable that these kata are not categorized as such in-house or regarded as batto by practitioners of other kenjutsu/iai/batto arts. Although I'm not interested in starting up that old chestnut again, but....as Will stated in the previous thread, I think it would be remiss of someone to presume an existing ryu was not possessed of specific iai waza simply because they had never been exposed to it personally. - Mark Spada
I can only address this with my, perhaps less than fantasic, knowledge of techniques, and the training resourses I have about. Also, this is somewhat of a repeat of my older post. As I'm sure you know, the schools with sword in them*, within the Bujinkan nine schools, are Kukishinden and Togakure. In a way, a few of the other schools have sword training. For example, Gyokko ryu's last two levels are made up of unarmed stuff against a swordsman. However, this is naturally more about learning how to deal with a swordmans man rather than training to be one. The same, really, can be said of Koto, Shinden fudo, and Takagi Yoshin Ryu. There are only techinques against a swordman or grappling with swords. I appricate that there are videos alike Kacem Zoughari's Gyokko ryu "Tôjutsu", but, I think that's a discussion for another tread. In terms of iai. Going back to Gyokko ryu, there are techniques such shun-u - where you jump in to strike when your opponant is about to draw their sword. Though I'd imagine that doesn't count. I believe Kukishinden, our branch of it at least, doesn't have any formal iai. Togakure has a handful of drawing techniques. I think there's a video on youtube displaying some of them - I'll look for it tomorrow. As said, the techniques are to use the shorter sword to cut faster than your opponant. The problem is, I believe a lot of Togakure ryu is made up training concepts, and that the iai falls into this, so I don't know if the techniques have names or if they're just trained unti "Togakure Biken Iai". "Kage no itto"*, springs to mind, but, unfortunatly, this is where someone better qualified than me will have to comment. But in short, as far as I know, Bujinkan iai will be found in Togakure. Also, Jinen-ryu has some iai. But, again, there are more experienced Jinenkan members on here who could comment. Sorry, in review, this post isn't helpful at all is it? I'll have a better stab at another time. Edit *Ah, right, the technique when you take the sword behind your back to draw. Good olde google. Edit *Edited for clarification.
Jinenkan guys, How do you find doing Kage no Itto in hakama? (This is a kumidachi kata it Togakure ryu btw Scott.)
sword schools, sword ryu-ha, kenjutsu schools, kenjutsu ryu-ha, ryu-ha with kenjutsu in them, bikenjutsu schools, ryu-ha with bikenjutsu in them. Martial arts system what have those damn pointy things in which happen to train, etc, etc. In short, let's all go to sword school
Ah....sorry. I wasn't aware that any of the nine Bujinkan ryu-ha were specifically designated as "sword schools". And according to your definition, there are a hell of a lot of "martial art systems what have those damn pointy things in which happen to train." - Mark Spada
Obviously, there is more to the schools than just being "sword schools". Though, fine, martial art systems what have those damn pointy things in which happen to train in which aren't pole weapons, throwing weapons, knives, or our own sharpened fists. I just meant ryu-ha which contain sword work Back to topic?
In order for us to go "back to topic", we need to be clear about the particulars of the topic. Specifically, your assertion that the "sword schools" of the Bujinkan are Kukishinden ryu and Togakure ryu is obviously wrong and potentially misleading. That's why I wrote this: I'm not trying to cause thread drift. I simply feel that you're not doing anyone any favors by proffering conjecture as fact. - Mark Spada
When it comes to sword arts, what's "standard"? Considering that, say, Jigen Ryu and Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu people disagree on how to even grip a sword and how to generate power while swinging it, and how, say, Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu and Togakure Ryu differ even on how to stand and walk while holding it, I have to wonder just what you mean by "standard methods". What does Togakure Ryu consider to be "standard"? What does Kukishin Ryu consider to be "standard"? And so on...? EDIT: Dammit. Looks like I posted in a place that's going to result in thread-derailing. Moderators, how should I handle this one and where should I post it?
I don't see how what I said was that obviously wrong and misleading. Kukishinden ryu and Togakure ryu are the Bujinkan schools with Kenjutsu in them. Admittedly, I perhaps should have clarafied it somewhat more than I did, by saying that they aren't just that, that they are "schools with sword" rather "swords schools". But still, I'll ask, did anyone else here think my phrasing was that awful? Maybe it's only me, but I don't see how anyone would be mislead into believe Kukishinden ryu, especially, only contains sword. Everything on this forum is opinion, and therefore conjecture, to a greatest or lessor extend. After all, it is a forum of students. I have not, personally, been exposed to any specific iai waza, beyond what I've said. Yet, I feel reasonably sure there's no other iai waza we practice, atleast in the Jinenkanm due to what my instructors have told me and the training resourses I have. Yes, perhaps there is some iai kuden, perhaps the Bujinkan trains in iai that isn't in our circumulum, and perhaps I am completely wrong. But that's the point of discussion. I have stated my conjecture, now you state yours, and we try to learn from it. I mean, we can only discuss the waza that was have been "exposed too" as exsisting. I appricate that you might feel someone saying "there is no iai in Koto ryu" isn't the best statement, as perhaps there is a secret next level of the school. But I think, for the purposes of the thread, saying "there is no iai waza in this ryu" is a fair enough way of saying "there is no iai waza in the branch of this ryu as far as it is currently taught in my organisation". Edit: And naturally, it's more than probable that some other ryu-ha had iai, along with other ascepts, perhaps are more-so comprehensive schools. Additionally, it is possible that other braches of the aformentioned ryu-ha have iai that the X-kan's don't have. But I don't see that either that is the topic at hand.
In the Genbukan there are 20 levels of rank in bikenjutsu, just like the taijutsu. At the start you do a lot of rei-ho then kamae then kihon and so on. Alot of the waza are from Kukishin ryu and some from Togakure ryu. Tanemura Soke did do some Shinden Fudo ryu Iai from a teacher named Suzuki, I think he no longer trains with. We do alot of iai kata now from Mugen Shinto ryu as Tanemura Sensei is a student of Nagao Zenryu who was a student of one of the last students of Takeda Sokaku. All of the training in the Genbukan is pretty serious, but by far bikenjutsu is the most serious, we also train with boken, iaito and shinai while testing. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXO1LeMuVic"]YouTube - Tanemura Sensei Bikenjutsu 1[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rao6lWgzxGU&feature=related"]YouTube - Tanemura Sensei Bikenjutsu 2[/ame] some more here at 4:10 in [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pO-8Q6hSufw"]YouTube - 玄æ¦é¤¨ Shinden Fudoryu Tanemura-Ha Taikai in UK[/ame]
I'm curious about this. Is this the same branch as Hatsumi sensei? or a differant branch? Or is it similar to the case of the old Shinden Fudo Ryu Jutaijutsu vs. Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu devide, where the idea of how seperate or conjoined they are is a debatable matter. Just asking as I've not heard of "Suzuki" as a SFR teacher, only Ueno Takashi, Toda, and Toshitsugu Takamatsu. EDIT: Ah, Here's some information on the matter
I'm working on 8th kyu biken, and have to say you probably won't find so much attention to kenjutsu detail in the Bujinkan - the reiho, kamae, noto, fudoshin, etc, it's very meticulous and difficult, and I'm just at the top. Not trying to start any X-kans wars here, but if you're interested in Takamatsuden kenjutsu, I'd strongly recommend a Genbukan dojo that has a teacher ranked in Bikenjutsu. In fact, my teacher starts grading at 95, rather than 100, since training with a sword is serious business, even moreso than jujutsu.
The first reminds me of Gyokko ryu's shun-u. As for the others; alien to me. Is shinden fudo ryu iai often trained in? As before, I'm just curious about what seems to be a seperate branch to what I was aware of.
Other than the Genbukan kyu/dan biken system, Mugen Shinto ru is the most recently practiced, here are some from non Genbukan [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8exKxOLANFs&feature=related"]YouTube - 大æ±æµã®å±…åˆè¡“ Iaijutsu of Daito ryu[/ame]
Crossing two threads at once here.... Really? I am familiar with the Togakure Ryu kata, but they are all lacking in certain aspects to actually be considered an Iai syllabus. It's more that the Kenjutsu (Bikenjutsu) of Togakure Ryu contains certain waza/kata and methods that start from a sheathed position, but that's not an Iai syllabus in itself. Out of interest, can you give a list of these sections and subsections, kata names, and Ryu-ha they belong to? One may also argue that, should a statement be prefaced with "I feel", then it's hardly a hard and fast concrete statement on what is or is not definate. But, for the record, the lineage that Hatsumi Sensei inherrited is said to not contain any Iai waza, although the line that Ueno Sensei had (and taught to Hatsumi) did contain Iai, so he could very easily have it from there. That does not, however, put Iai into the line of Shinden Fudo in the Bujinkan, unless Hatsumi decides to put it in there. Okay, I'm curious here... which of the actions Kacem goes through here are supposed to be from anything from an old system? And which ones? Cause, you see... 0:02 Rolling into a draw, then spinning around on one knee as he whips the sword around (not a cut) to have it rest nonchalently on his shoulder, then similarly whipped down in a very non-Koryu form for noto doesn't look like anything from any old system I've seen. 0:12 Against a downward cut, drop and draw to cut the outside of the ankle.... okay as a concept, but realistically there's a good chance of still ending up rather dead. 0:14-17 The reverse draws, again an interesting concept, but doesn't really suit much in a Koryu fashion. 0:18 Er, what? 0:19 There's a lot to talk about in this, the cramped cutting method, the head facing downward, but again it just doesn't feel right. 0:25 Er, what again? 0:42 Not really an advised Iai method, again, it just doesn't feel like anything that an Iai system would actually do. Still, if you can let us know which systems these are supposed to have come from, it'd be rather interesting, to say the least (PS things like this are why I doubt the veracity of things such as Gyokko Ryu Tojutsu, by the way). Saying that the practitioners knew how to draw and sheath a sword is still a far cry from saying that they had Iaijutsu within their teachings. Really, the desire or need to see all of these systems as "sogo bujutsu" systems is really not looking at things realistically. Sogo bujutsu systems certainly existed, and there is definately more than a chance that one or more of the arts that exist in the Bujinkan today may have once been such, but there is just as much chance that they weren't (or haven't been for a very long time). Basically, there is no rule and should be no expectation for any one system to have any or every aspect itself. Koto Ryu and Kukishinden Ryu, for instance, would have little to no need or requirement for Iai, so to look for it there because you have a conscious expectation, regardless of any understanding of what the system's needs would have been, is rather timewasting. Togakure, on the other hand, has a need (or use) for it, same with Shinden Fudo, and Takagi Yoshin (although I believe the Mizuta-den, practiced in the Bujinkan, no longer contains weapon syllabus, whereas the Ishitani-den does still contain weaponry... I'll leave it to Genbukan members to discuss any Iai that is contained in there, I believe it is only Bojutsu and Kenjutsu, rather than Iai though). Gyokko, again, doubtful from my side of things. Absolutely technically, Mark, Hatsumi Sensei is Soke of Kukishinden Ryu Happo Biken, which is a school of Kenjutsu (Biken being made up of Kenjutsu, Kodachijutsu, and Juttejutsu), with much of the other sections coming from other branches... such as the Dakentaijutsu being Hontai Kijin Chosui Ryu Kukishin Ryu, the Bojutsu being Hontai Kukishin Ryu and Kijin Chosui Ryu, and so on. So, uh, Kukishinden Ryu is a "sword school".... it just also contains other things. Really, something can be a specific-weapon school, and contain other weapons, such as Toda-ha Buko Ryu being a Naginata school, as well as containing Nagamaki, Tachi, Yari, Bo, and Kusarigama. But it's still a Naginata school.
I believe the Jinenkan teaches techniques from the Mizuta and the Ishitani line. But that these don't include weaponry. However, obviously, it may not be the case of the Genbukan. Edit: Except for techniques against a katana.
Not sure about that.... from a communique with a high ranking Genbukan member, we looked at a comparrison between Manaka's Takagi Yoshin Ryu material, and the Genbukan and Bujinkan versions. The Jinenkan version was pretty much the Mizuta-den version, although there was some question over some of the content (discrepencies between versions from other organisations). But due to certain kata being named the way they are, that indicates the Mizuta-den, not the Ishitani-den.
