Bad Ninjutsu Videos and Critiques w/o Off Topic Videos

double post

 

I would expect them not to hand people turd, otherwise what is the point? Why even put it out there?

You see the same sort of stuff cropping up at taikai too.

I feel like there must be a huge disparity between what hatsumi can actually do, what he uses and what he shows others. Sometimes the quality of material and the reverence of his acolytes looks no better than the stuff put out by nutters like Dennis Bartram and his throng of misguided cult-like sycophants.

It looks very much like hatsumi uses the bujinkan as either A) a money making scheme B) a martial plaything for half ideas and thought experiments C) a personality cult D) a giant practical joke. E) a smoke screen to filter out idiots who want to play ninja F) some combination of the above

 

must there be a disparity? why?

or maybe it's all just playtime and that's really as good as it gets?

playtime is fine if you're honest about it.

 

Fair enough. Substitute must for could.

 

One things for sure, no amount of internet sleuthing will ever give you the answer.

 

and yet i don't have to go to <insert country> to box, wrestle, muay thai, eskrima, and judo. fancy that. i did brazilian jujitsu in athens greece of all places at the local gracie affiliated place, and it was just like my hometown and nyc gyms that i've trained at. the guys were tough, and the instructor was more than competent. chicago, nyc, athens....not brazil, or japan for that matter

another salient and interesting point. my first bjj or submission wrestling class, first judo class, first boxing session, first eskrima session, i sparred against resisting opponents.

 

please @pr, give us your thoughts on hatsumi's demo of multiple attackers.

also, i'd like your thoughts on the failed sakki test

 

Finally I'd like to know if you practice head butting against a tree.

 

Hahahaha.
If there's something bad in Ninjutsu from today it's "yeah but back in the day things were much better/harder". When something is bad from years ago it's "yeah but that was years ago".
It's like some sort of Schrodinger's Ninjutsu which is somehow simultaneously better year ago and better today.

 

Is it even bad by today's standards or is it just bad? If we actually look at what's wrong with it we can see that it is just total dog crap through and through.

If someone came along and posted that as an example of their technical syllabus in their own org/school they would be shredded to bits and told to stop defrauding people or to get to legit training. So what is hatsumi doing demoing it?

If anyone can defend it, I'm all ears.

 

And the sheer hilarity of saying something is bad by the standards of today's Ninjutsu.
I mean today's Ninjutsu is a paragon of student quality and overall quality control right? Right?

 

Knee Rider posted

I understand where you are coming from I really do. I was very anti Bujinkan. Just go read some of my posts here over the last ten years, and yes I commented again and again on poor videos produced by members of the organisation, and the heads themselves.

I was a critical skeptic of the Bujinkan and then I joined the Bujinkan about 3 or 4 years ago. Went to Japan, and guess what...

I'm still a critical skeptic of the Bujinkan.

I think the grade system is abhorent, and people do just show up for grades in Japan and get their fourth dan for just making the trip. They can sometimes even get their 5th dan at the end of the week if they play their cards right. And if you ask some of these people the history of the art they study or get them to do Kihon Happo or say "Show me Renyo" many would not have a clue how to do it.

I think some of the videos produced by people within the Bujinkan are poor, and show in many cases a lack of understanding, training and a desire to make money and get on the seminar circuit. In fact I think many people within the art are not motivated by learning but simply opening schools all over the place to make a living.

I also think that in many cases going to Japan you are not actually going to learn much, depending on the people you go and study from. Hatsumi's class is like a Mecca and you get practitioners wall to wall and if you ever had a class like that here in the UK the authorities would close you down due to health and safety on the grounds that there are too many people in the building. On top of that I don't think Hatsumi Sensei is actually teaching much. Performing yes, Showing people what they want, Yes, but actually teaching No. To learn you need to find a teacher, although it is strange that there will be 150+ people in Hatsumis class yet only 10 for someone like Someya who actually teaches straight from the densho.

And of course I could go on.

However having said that I remain in the Bujinkan and heres why...

I think as you outlined in point E, a smoke screen for idiots who want to play Ninja may actually come somewhere near the truth. This is Ninjutsu and its also a Japanese art and as such things are not just going to be given to you. The organisation is not a consumer society where you can demand what you want. I think there has to be a level of trust, familiarity, and dedication otherwise you are probably not going to be shown the actual real stuff. I know how that sounds but that may just be the way that it is.

In some respects PR is correct in saying that to understand you have to go to Japan. It can't be explained on a forum for people who want easy written answers. I'm sorry I have to say that, its just the way it is. Its a bit like the other active post at the moment in regard to long range punching. Its simply cannot be explained over a forum. Again not dodging the question its just how it is.

Now having said that of course as already outlined there are big problems with the Bujinkan. Quality control, Grades given out like confetti, and don't get me wrong being 30 years plus in this art (Ninjutsu) it bugs the hell out of me, however the way I see it, your belt grades are given by your instructor and if you don't live in Japan that instructor is usually a teacher who goes to Japan on a regular basis.

The key is finding a good instructor. Someone you trust to give you the real stuff, not some half baked quasi judo, aikido mix where they tell you you don't have to learn kihon or kata but "Just go with the flow man".

Once you have that, your grades are in relation to your teacher, NOT in relation to everyone else who simply gets a grade by sitting on a plane for 12 hours. I don't see my grades as in relation to the organisation (Bujinkan) or other people in the Bujinkan, but at what stage my teacher places me under his teaching, his knowledge and skill. Of course this can mean that a shodan under one teacher could be worth a godan under another, but then that just shows that the either the other person needs to get better or they better find a better teacher.

Personally I take much of what comes out of the Bujinkan with a pinch of salt especially claims by certain individuals, and some of the claims and videos are laughable. I think PR is almost perfectly correct when he posts some of the videos out on youtube. They are laughable if not damn right embarrasing.

But anyway I hope that didn't sound like a rant. Sitting here with the kids on holiday and not much to do so at any other time may not have replied.

So to end this post, does Ninjutsu (Bujinkan) work. Yes it does, BUT, and heres the BUT you have to have commitment and find a good teacher.

 

Im glad you posted. It was candid and interesting.

I must say I found it quite affirmatory of my suspicion that hatsumi is essentially taking the **** and raking it in hand over fist.

 

well i have to say that i appreciate the honesty.

some of the biggest financial frauds in history have been perpetrated by wily salesmen who after initially suckering people in on the fraud, keep them coming back by promising a secret at the end of the tunnel, even though all the evidence is a losing proposition.

 

What gets me is how everyone involved is convinced they see through the smokescreen and "get it" while the other people don't.

 

It's a shame mattt could no longer be bothered to argue the case from a sport fighting perspective. He provided a much needed middle ground perspective that facilitated debate somewhat.

 

My thoughts are you are close to trolling and I have no need to feed someone with an agenda. I already told you how you could find out if it works or not, the onus is on you to do so if you please. This isn't other arts so bringing up how things are in other art's schools doesn't mean much. I've posted plenty of videos in this thread along with detailed explanations as to why I found them bad. Maybe I'm wrong about your intentions, but your attitude is not conducive if you are really interested in learning.

 

I remember going to a seminar with Hatsumi back in the early 1990s. IIRC he said that a ninjas role was about intelligence gathering and that a ninja had to know the truth from falsehood (Kyojitsu Tenkan Ho, the underlying principle of ninjutsu). After explaining to seminar participants this point he then went on to show techniques that in my opinion were ridiculous even to the point of using three naginata IIRC. I had a feeling at this time that he was seeing who got the lesson about understanding real from falsehood. But whilst I stood on the sidelines watching having given up training with this technique, i still saw about 300 people nodding their heads and trying to get it.

I do wonder if at that time Hatsumi was trying to put across a point and then seeing who got it.

Maybe the way Hatsumi and the Japanese teach is not direct teaching i.e. "This is how you do it" but more like allowing you to discover things for yourself along the way.

And yes whilst a lot of people won't get it, this is ninjutsu its not for everyone. I'm not even sure I get it.

 

To be honest I can understand how you might not have the inclination to comment as its obviously going to feel like a hostile environment in which you are being asked to justify yourself; but really, nobody needs to train any form of ninpo to see that those techniques are unworkable and so deeply flawed as to render them laughable. The real question is why they are taught/shown and not if they work. Iwamawashi as demoed in that video by hatsumi was a joke.