Attacking or defensive emphasis of Arnis v Doce Pares Eskrima?

Perhaps a strange question, stemming from an observation, but I was watching a video (starring Pat O'Malley at various stages incidently ) in which Arnis was featured, and I noticed it seemed to be very much 'pad up and all out' attacking, super fast, many strikes very quicky. Now contrasted to the Doce Pares Eskrima which I'm doing, we do a lot of more defensive manoevers, locks, grabs, blocks etc. which perhaps apply more to a single strike self-defense situation, and would be very difficult to try to pull off against someone striking extremely fast from multiple angles.

I guess the question is, is this reflective of the emphasis on these arts, or is it just coincidence that I saw more attacking in that particular example of Arnis, and am practicing more defense at the moment in the Doce Pares?

 

B

It may also be an emphasis of one particular teacher over another. I'd generally put more faith in that (or the idea you mentioned, that you're just learning the defensives stuff at first) than I would in the idea that some style of arnis is more offensive than Doce Pares. (Bearing in mind, also, that much of Pat's background is Doce Pares.)

All the tools are there. How they get put together in any given class is the question.


Stuart

 

I train with Pat's man in Scotland, Scott Marshall (for the past 9 months or so.) RA is an interesting amalgum of inputs and yes, it is definately attack oriented as well as self-defence. There are a lot of parts that come into it Long Stick, Panatukan, single-hand sword, locking, boxing, grappling, some DP stuff and others; as well as the slightly more familiar espada y daga, double daggers, hubud, empty hand, doble baston etc.

Each class seems to have a different flavour and at times it is difficult to remember any of it, next time round. So as far as I can tell some patience is required to assimilate it all.

As far as I know, Pat was originally a Muay Thai fighter, and started to assimilate FMA from quite a few sources e.g San Miguel Eskrima, but DP the dominant source.

This may be to do with DP being the most established and widespread (within the Phillipines and outside) FMA 'system' (I think thats the term used, not 'style', 'school').

However, even within DP there seems to be quite a bit of variation - or maybe Im picking this up incorrectly.

 

No, I think you're right on the money. My background is primarily Doce Pares as well (Cacoy branch). With the Patalinghug family. And I've observed definite differences. In process, if not in the end product.


Stuart

 

i agree with stuart. but i must ask you to see your "attacks" as also defense. in fma, attacks are also defensive. it's in the mindset. grabs and locks and those stuff are weapons of opportunity, not to be mistaken as a "primary" defense.

 

I've always been drawn to arts where there is always the immediate possibility of turning defence into attack AND where attack mandates a defensive headset as well.

What I mean by this is a) when attacking NEVER disrespect your opponent, thinking they are finished - i.e dont take it for granted, and b) no matter how desperate one's situation is in defense, you can always find momentary points to exploit their weaknesses and reverse the situation. Having the mindset and training to spot these openings in your opponent AND not releasing openings to your opponent/not telegraphing my intentions, is what I aspire to (even though I cant always get this into practise.)

I am quite 'young' in FMA time, but it seems to be based on a strong sense of 'flow' i.e. nothing is constant or definate - you can always surprise someone and you can be surprised by someone, there is constant ebb and flow, like most of life.

 

Thanks guys, interesting stuff. My instructor trained under Cacoy Canete in Doce Pares, but he's also done a bit of Arnis, I think we get a bit of everything, dosed with a heavy influence of Krav Maga weapons defense and Hock's SFC, so I guess the emphasis of my teacher is probably self-defense, but I'm sure we'll do some more attacking work at some stage.

 

Stuart, maybe you and some of the more experienced FMA guys could start a thread or 2 on a) some of the principles and techniques of FMA and b) some of the major/minor branches of FMA and how their evolutions emerged e.g. different strands of Doce Pares, differences/similarities between/with purely the Fillipino roots (Doce Pares, Balintawak and many others) and the very strong US influences (Cabales, Inosanto et al)? Also the European fencing influences are of interest. Also Cacoy Canete's interest/assimilation of Japanese Judo and Aikido via Eskrido - is Eskrido taught as an intergral part of Cacoy Canete's Doce Pares, or is it taught separately?

The diversity of FMA seems to be very great, and at times it is difficult to assimilate where all the diffferent roots and systems sit in the aggregated picture. For example, if we currently ignore the Kali myth/dispute/whatever (no flame wars please) for now, 'convention' states that Eskrima/Arnis comes from Cebu and its neighbouring islands, and that there is a culture in Mindinao based more on Silat and Kuntao. However, I understand that Illustrisimo came from Manilla, before he travelled to the US.

Personally I would find such information to be of great interest.

If you look in Koyo's many Aikido threads and discussion, there is an almost encylopedic aggregation and presentation of Aikido with a lot of technical detail, the roots of the arts that went into Ueshiba's fusion and general Japanese sword based arts/ryus.

From what I can pick up, this is quite difficult with FMA, because the roots are much more diverse and multi-headed, and quite often borrowing from each other. For all its political problems and divisions, Aikido is an art that has one individual at its core i.e. Ueshiba, so it maybe makes relatively simple to summarise for koyo with his 50 years of experience. With FMA I reckon this will be more difficult and require input from more practitioners/sources.

I await with interest the input (and I imagine others to), whoever covers the material of FMA.

 

The question is...why? Why correalate all that historical (and usuallly anecdotal data?) Will it make you a better eskrimador? My experience of aikido suggests that most of this type of research is the equivalent of trainspotting.

BTW from what I remember Illustrisimo was a cebuano who settled in manila in later life.

 

Its largely practical for me - I cant say for anyone else. I normally have to travel around a lot for work, and hence to train with whoever at whatever facilities I can find, when I am somewhere new. I wish to form some basis for an objective assesment of what is being taught and how usefully I can assimilate what is on the table.

From older Aikido times, and from more recent and current Tai Ch Chuan times, I can say that I encountered some training that I did not find particularly captivating i.e. it had a generally negative effect on me - I could have done something better with my money and time.

So far, everything I have encountered with FMA has really appealed to me - I havent seen anything negative yet. However, like with most things in life nowadays as a 50 year old, I dont always accept MA at face value, but I try to be responsive to the teaching, personalities and environment around me.

Anecdotal data is as you state anecdotal, but its better than complete ignorance, as long as one avoids dogmatic opinions/standpoints based on minimal experience (which is most definately my case) i.e my interest is reflective.

Will it make me or anyone else a better Eskrimador? - only time will tell. My ambition level is not particularly high. My biggest ambition is probably to be capable of continous practise in 10 years time when I am 60!

The info on Illustrisimo is a small nugget of usefull input. One day I may be somewhere, where folk are training in Illustrisimo or influenced by it. If I can pick this kind of thing up from the people there, the more accurately, can I assess their sincerity and quality/depth of experience (albeit in a very small way.) I should have used the 'Thank You' thingy but Im editing now rather than posting, but thanks anyway.

 

Whew. Well, I did an interview with GM Cacoy years ago for publication. Never got published because some brain trust at the magazine in question lost the manuscript and all accompanying photographs. But I've got the content saved around here somewhere.

I've also got an "article" I wrote on the fencing/FMA connection. Though it's far from being historical research. It's unabashedly personal anecdote and mostly just details similarities in technique without providing any concrete explanation for them (except to say, obviously, that the Spanish occupation played a large part).

If I can turn either of them up, I'll post them.


Stuart

p.s. Progdan, "arnis" is a generic term. It doesn't refer to a specific style. In fact, back in the late 80s/early 90s--when I started practicing Doce Pares--my teachers were refering to it as Doce Pares Arnis rather than Eskrima. I forget when that changed. But arnis, eskrima, and kali are all generic terms.

 

Sounds good. Anything that helps frame the context in some way is always appreciated.

 

As the last line of the journal entry reads, don't say I didn't warn you.

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/journal.php?do=showjournal&j=90

 

Thanks for sharing that article, interesting read!

Ah yes, thanks, I was aware of that, I probably meant Rapid or Modern Arnis or whatever it was that I saw, I can't quite remember. I think it was Rapid Arnis...

 

Ah, that makes sense. Gotcha.

Sorry for that then.


Stuart

 

FYI...Pat was originally a JKD guy I think. And got into FMA through Bob Breen.

I trained with Pat a few years back and it wouldn't surprise me if the videos you've seen might reflect Pat's "go whack 'em" attitude rather than anything inherently offensive in Rapid Arnis as a style.
When I did it it had all the usual blocks, flow drills and stuff that other FMA's have.
Perhaps Pat's experience fighting in Black eagle events has leant his stuff a more offensive edge?

 

FWIW, the very evening after I posted this, I asked my instructor (He's done Doce Pares and Modern Arnis) about the 'twirling' strikes when we were doing the 12 angle striking form for Doce Pares, and so focussed on that for the whole lesson, very attacking, very fast, and very fun...

 

I may have missed it as I have only quickly skimmed over the thread quickly, but can you tell me what video it was, so I can advise accurately on the subject.

Love Lucy

 

Ah, I think it was an oldish one, which featured a whole stack of different arts on it, not really fantastic production, but interesting, and I reckon 'Martial Arts: Fighting Spirit' or something along those lines rings a bell as far as what it might've been called?

 

Apparently there is a lot of video footage on me at various stages of my FMA carea floating around out there, some of which I have not even seen before. I was only recently talking to a top female JMA Sword practioner who has some footage of me sparring full on, no armour from many years ago which I have yet to see, but can remember where it was filmed.

As for you comment of 'pad up and all out' attacking, super fast, many strikes very quicky' I can only assume that maybe you have seen some old tournament footage of me in my WEKAF years? The WEKAF format and it's rules very much dictates this sort of approach but that is a very small part of what I have done, it is only the sport side of things and not to be taken too seroiusly. It has it's benefits and it's downfalls like everything else.

When I teach and practice the art I can be either offensive or defensive, depending on my mood and what I am trying to get accross to the students too, so it is all a matter of perspective.

I have trained with Doce Pares Masters who a very much offensive in their approach and other Doce Pares Masters who are very much deffensive in theirs, so again it all depends on who you are training with and what message they are trying to get across at the time?

But I have also had the fortune to train with many other top Masters from other FMA styles and each has their own unique message, they are all the same to the untrained eye but then again they can all be very different, that is the fasination of the FMA.

Just to clarify things, I started my MA training with TKD and then moved on to Boxing, my first expeariance of FMA was via Peter Dunne who was a student of Master Bob Breen, I trained with Peter for about a year before being introduced to Bob and the JKD Kali clan, and I was with Bob for a very very long time. Master Bob also introduced me to Doce Pares back in the late 80's as well as many other FMA systems such as Pekiti Tirsia and Inayan Serrada Eskrima and he introduced me to many of the Masters in the Philippines.

Master Bob Breen started me on my FMA Journey of discovery and taught me that no one person has all the answers so if you get the chance train with as many of the top Masters as you can and gain from their expeariance as they all have something to offer, this is something that has stuck with me every since and something I pass over to all my students.

In my expeariance, trying to compare one style of FMA against another in such black and white terms is like trying to thread the eye of a needle with a scaffold pole, especially when looking a video footage, what you see on the surface is not nessisarily the whole picture, it maybe just window dressing if you know what I mean?

Also again it all depends on when and where the video footage was shot and for what reasons, I know looking over some old video footage I have of myself that I my whole approach is very different to what it was years ago, things change with expeariance and hopefully they get better for it too.

I would very much like to see the video footage your talking about then I would be able to give you a clearer descrition of what you are veiwing and at what stage of my FMA development it is.

Hope that helps

Best regards

Pat