Atheism and Taoism

Taoism-

1- religious Taoism, which is basically the indigenous religious beliefs of the culture complete with gods,spirits,divination,etc.That's why there are Taoist temples for the common man of whatever social status instead of having just a bunch of Taoist hermits living in caves.Pre communism there were certainly more people involved in this than in the "other" Taoisms.

2-philosophical Taoism- which in the case of the TTChing is equally or even more so about political guidance than most westerners seem to realize.When one is directed in the Tao Te Ching to burn the books and keep the people in ignorance...well,it sure isn't about enlightenment or knowledge for the common man. The socio-political has been pretty much sloughed off and this is the Taoism of which has previously been noted is about cultivating understanding of the Tao of nature/the universe and living in harmony.This includes various outlooks and practices,including the Tao of Evil.

3-alchemical Taoism-the "mystic" practices,which in antiquity were for and by mystics in their search for immortality.With which it is suspected that emperor Huang Ti's life was shortened by his "sages" trying to bestow immortality upon him with their sometimes toxic elixirs. Nowadays mostly confined to "internal" alchemical practices,some of which have been adopted by individual martial practitioners or systems.

4-"modern" or Western Taoism-a term for the mostly western "pop" variety of supposed Taoist thought,essentially a make it up out of whatever suits you.For good reasons not considered Taoism of any stripe by Taoists.This is where things like "The Tao of Pooh" are given a home.

??? Where does history show this and what were these problems?

People get involved in religions/philosophies for various reasons,good and poor.In some instances learning some of the basic cosmological Taoist views can be useful for specific MA systems.You don't need to know them to kick tail with Hsing I,but it can help with understanding the theory,structure,and terminology used within the system. If we discard codes of conduct and such I'm not sure how much Buddhist thought actually translates into systems except in some internal/alchemical/meditative practices.In respect to CMAs,the overriding older culture of Chinese/Taoist thought or outlook pervades in most.Even supposed Shaolin methods may commonly use terms such as Yin,Yang,,Wu Hsing,etc.

 

Yin Yang, Tai Ji, Liang Yi, Si Xiang, Ba Gua, etc., were used long before Taoism and Buddhism. In fact they abused these concepts and it is the right wisdom not to believe the ways Taoists and Buddhists are interpreting these ideas. There is no such thing as martial art Taoism or Buddhism. Martial art is useful for practitioners of Taoism, Buddhism, Atheism, humanism, etc., but not the other way around.

 

It is interesting to note that El Medico did not mention the sexual practices of Taoism, which may be relevant to some Qi Gong practitioners.

 

Interesting you fail to realize that's in the alchemical territory.

Obviously before Buddhism.Anyway I said "overriding older culture of Chinese/Taoist thought".Note "Chinese" in the sentence.

Oh,

I ask again,where does history show this and what were these problems?

 

I think one can look up the zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hant/少林派 and translate it into English，or Tang Hao (唐豪)'s 1930 study on Shaolin and Wudang. Dharma and Zhang Sanfeng are just legends according to Tang Hao.

The Taoists and Buddhists made so many mistakes in interpreting the concepts in the book of change and other ancient medical books, I think it is a waste of time to correct them. I think one of the example is the introduction of the concept of Wuji. And it should be a good starting point if anyone interested in wasting time on it. As far as I concern, some people still trying to workout the difference between Taiji and Wuji in Martial Arts after all these years.

 

Yeah, that's great insight...and very true.

Just look at Bodhidharma refocusing the Shaolin Monks on their martial arts!

As I see it there's 2 [main] paths into Buddhism:

1. Through trial and error of the teachings
2. Through Zen

I think Martial Arts are a great way to understand the basics of Zen.

 

Does it really say that?!

The only historical case I can see is when Bodhidharma realised the practice had become to convoluted and esoteric.

 

Yes, that's true. He also sat in front of a wall for nine years meditating and cut off his eye Lids so he wouldn't fall asleep.

 

Alan Watts had a talk entitled:

"Swimming Headless and the Wisdom of the Ridiculous"​

Perhaps he concurred with Bodhidharma's idea?

 

Considered. You don't know anything about Buddhism.

First there are two major divisions in Buddhism.
1. Theravada.
2. Mahayana.

Then within each of them there are dozens of schools with all sorts different approaches.

The martial arts will not teach you Zen. Zen comes from the Pali word dhyana which is translated as meditation. The Soto school of Zen focuses on sitting meditation. There is no other way to learn Soto other than a sitting meditation practice. Rinzai Zen focuses on koan which they considered meditation.

That is an example of major differences in just one school in one country, Japan.

As for from the teachings which would you use. There are thousands of sutras which contradict each other in major ways.

Then there is Tibetan Buddhism which is way off by itself. Some Buddhists don't even consider it to be Buddhism.

 

Every word is wrong...

...particularly:

People don't understand Tibetan Buddhism because of the tantric empowerments - and there is some credence in saying "therefore it's rubbish/trash"...actually though, you could consider Tibetan Mahayana Buddhism the highest - as it has potential to spawn and cultivate Sotāpannas.

 

Which part is wrong? The 2 major divisions, the difference between Soto and Rizai, that Zen comes from dhyana, that Tibetan Buddhism isn't disparaged by other schools of Buddhism?

Don't just say it's wrong give your reasons.

 

Every part....

The context of you message was that I don't know about Buddhism. Therefore the following words were supporting the foundation of that context ... following that contextual arrangement, you could have said anything and it would have been wrong.

Separating the literal words from the context - I get the disconnect...

Yes, there are 2 main types of Buddhism:

Mahayana ("for you")
Theravadin ("for me")

and within each there are dozen of schools...

If you want to end suffering, in this modern age, you need a complicated structure like that... as a "catch-all" (like fly-paper, or a spiders web, if you will).

What you said about Zen is false....but that's ok....it usually is

"If somebody says 'That's very Zen', it's not" - Robert Allen, Zen Priest​

 

Ok what is false about my Zen comments?

Based on what you have posted so far I stand by what I have said. I am not a Buddhist but I do have a mindfulness practice based on The Shin Pure Land school. Because of that I have spent a fair amount of time reading and posting on Buddhist forums. I have actually read several of the sutras. I do this looking for tools that will help me improve my practice.

 

Technically, and in theory, you know more Zen than I do - because I don't know the different schools and how they teach...

What you said about the meaning of Zen, though, is wrong ... 'cos it's Zen > Chan > Jhana ... BUT ... Thinking that means "meditation" of even "meditative absorption" is a very common misconception - so I'll forgive you that, and we'll agree to disagree...

Except that I don't know anything about Buddhism?

That's great.

What did you think about the Brahma Viharas?

 

Don't really care about them. I'm not into the Vedic traditions.

The reason I said you don't know much about Buddhism is because you speak about it as if it was a single thing. Spend some time on the Buddhist forums you would see how much time they spend fighting about who has the real Buddhism.

 

That's wisdom talking!

Light creates dark.

I would, but someone destroyed eSangha - there aren't any other good ones

 

Do you want to provide some links that explain or discuss this "common misconception"? Or if you could get the "man in the pub" who told you this to sign up to the forum and explain it to us, that would be fine too!

 

Not really.

As soon as Zen was realigned 1,500 years ago it started to go off-track again.

"When Zen came East it slipped its leash, now catch it if you can" - Robert Allen, Zen Priest​

 

You don't want to?...Or can't?

Do you honestly expect people to take you seriously in this discussion when you post comments like that?