Gang, I gleaned their (ATA Songahm) website ( http://www.ataonline.com/about/organizations/stf.asp ) and came up with, essentially, nada. Long story short, I moved to the States to pursue my Ph.D, and haven't the time to start my own school (WTF), and I've nowhere to train on my own. The only school that is in decent distance to my abode is an ATA school....so, a conundrum I be in. Question is, 'What are the glaring differences between the two TKD styles?' I've done ITF and WTF (separately and combination thereof) for some 18 years now....but no real knowledge of ATA. I did, however, see them do some demos in Korea 2 years back....'twas funny watching their faces (jaws drop) when they saw the KyoungHee Univ. students put on their demo...ok, I digress. Apart from the different forms (may be fun learning new ones, already know ITF, WTF <old and new>), what exactly is the difference? I'd really like to know about sparring differences too! Thanks for the help... Cheers, DH
DH, I know that you are only asking for opinions from strangers, maybe I can help. Please understand that I have never been in an ATA school so I have no first hand information to pass on to you. I'm not sure if I should be weighing in on this topic, I do so with extreme caution/concern as I want to be considered a fair person who only comments on things that I have first hand knowledge on. But... You can get loads of biased opinion (pro/con) by checking out the TKD internet newsgroup. alt.martial-arts.tae-kwon-do I've done a google newsgroup search for you, just try this link, it should take you to numerous threads of the discussion group, which by the way if you didn't know, is not as pleasant an experience as MAP. Here is the link http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...earch&meta=group=alt.martial-arts.tae-kwon-do If this link doesn't work, let me know I will explain to you how to do the search. From there you will be up all night reading point/counter point about this organisation. One thing about the ATA, their forms are copyrighted and unique to the ATA. The ATA also is I believe a franchise group. Once again, I have no first hand information about the ATA, I only know what I have found on the internet, which is plenty. From what i know about you from reading your posts on MAP and what I learned about the ATA on the internet, I have doubts that you will be interested in it, but I would be very interested in knowing your impression, if you decide to persue it, of the group. Tom
H-n-R, Thank you very much for the link, it was much more helpful than ATA's site. I suppose you are right about me not exactly 'fitting in' there. I blew out my right knee while training just before coming to the States, but the Korean doctors said "Surgery!" I said, I'll wait for second opinions Stateside....went to a ortho. doc. yesterday, sure enough, under the scapel he wants me go....bugger! I have 'just' finished healing my left knee's surgery, and really not in the mood to spend $10,000 on another surgery, let alone a minimum of 1 year off of any physical activity....eish. That's how I gained 20 kgs (45lbs ish). So I guess there's no need for me to attend any school (unless I am just an instructor that can't demo. kicks or sparring), but my wife (btw, that's her with our dogs in my image) misses TKD and is pestering me to enroll her. She's 2nd dan, so has much to gain by going....guess I'll strike up a deal with a not-so-close WTF/ITF school. Danke. Cheers, Dae-han
Welcome to the USA Dae Han!! Where are you living stateside, and what are you studying for your advanced degree? --Ann R.
DH, Sorry to hear about your knee. I'm sure you will find some way to get back into training and probably faster than you think. I will be interested in hearing about your adventures in the US, so keep in touch. Tom
Sorry, lot....I thought that my posts were evident. I am a naturalised US citizen, not Korean (though that's my Korean name). As for where I'm located, currently Melbourne, FL....but I've yet to decide on which programme to attend for my Ph.D...also, depends on my wife's acceptance....as she's also shooting for a Ph.D. I know I can't rush this kinda surgery, but the difference is is that I won't be half as busy here as I was in Korea....thanks for the positive comments. Cheers, DH
The ATA was founded in 1969 by Master Haeng Ung Lee in Omaha. He had moved to the USA in 1962 after one of his students, Richard Reed (now a Senior Master), had learned Taekwondo from Master Lee in Korea. When Mr. Reed's tour of duty in the Air Force ended, he returned to the USA and sponsored Master Lee's immigration. In the 70's, Master Lee moved the headquarters to Little Rock, where they are today. For a while, the ATA taught Gen. Choi's forms, but Master Lee was not satisfied with the depth of the forms. He did a lot of research on some of the older Korean martial arts styles and made the decision to implement a new style of Taekwondo that emphasized kicking skills from Day 1. In 1983, he introduced the first of the Songahm ("Pine Tree") style forms. ATA has grown to be another large martial arts sanctioning body in the world. In recognition of this, Master Lee was honored with the rank of 9th Degree Black Belt and the title of Grandmaster at the ATA World Championships in 1990. A petition had been raised requesting this title and was signed by more than 100,000 students to show that he was indeed the head of a major organization. In keeping with his values, Grandmaster Lee did not simply accept an honorary title, but tested for his rank before assembled Masters and Grandmasters of other styles of TKD and other martial arts disciplines and they agreed that he was worthy of the rank and title. In ATA now has over 200 schools in Korea teaching the Songahm style. Most of them are instructors in WTF / ITF who switched to Songahm because they felt it was a better style. We have nearly 1000 schools and IIRC, more than 150,000 active students in the USA alone (I stand to be corrected, as the numbers change constantly and I got these numbers several months ago). ATA has a strict uniform lettering policy. They have a maximum of four patches on the solid white uniform: the ATA patch on the right lapel, our school patch on the left lapel and the Black Belt Club or Master Club patch on the outer shoulder(s). Certified tournament judges will wear 1, 2 or 3 chevrons on the end of the right sleeve indicating their judging training and level. The back of the uniform is lettered TAEKWONDO and ATA, with the city and state for students or the name for instructors. Instructors in training will wear a red lapel stripe; certified instructors will wear a black lapel stripe. Seniors (4th Degree and above) will also wear a black stripe down the outside of the pants legs. They conduct closed tournaments. That decision was made in the interest of judging quality and caliber. When you compete in an ATA tournament, you have three judges who thoroughly know the form that you are presenting. One judges hand techniques only .. one judges kicks and stances only... and the third judges overall flow and presentation. They do Olympic-style sparring, but its not their primary sparring style. Students are more than welcome to try out for the Olympic sparring team. Learn more about the ATA by visiting THIS web site at www.taekwondousa.com. * .... most of this info was obtained by the alt.martial-arts.tae-kwon-do newsgroup
As a sort of side note: For the past year, we've had a young man who is an ATA 3rd dan (Instructor in Training... with the uniform as Kickchick describes it) training with us. He uses a different set of forms than the WTF or ITF ones, and to me, they seem a bit longer and pretty exciting. He is obviously well-trained and has greta technique, power, footwork and agility. In my opinion, if this young man represents what goes on in ATA schools, I would love to check one out.
He isn't. Well, at least what I've seen. I've visited two ATA schools recently, and they were all in poor shape. Although, one gave me a good chuckle when he bragged that he had visited Korea for 2 weeks. I know several ATA Korean masters (in Korea), and they've a spot on programme, however, they've also fused ATA with WTF. Also, I remember about 2 years ago ATA's (US) national demo. team visited Korea. I, coincidentally, happened to be around for several demos....they were quite cocky for most of the trip, until at the end when they visited Kyeonghee Univ., and saw their demo team. I wish I brought my video cam. to see their jaws drop. I learned ATA forms for fun when I visited my ATA master friends, and yes, they are refreshing. The ATA schools in my area are a joke, luckily, I'm moving this week (and will have new choices in schools). Although, I heard there was a good one near my new residence. Maybe I'll head my univ.'s TKD club... Cheers, DH
. You guys need to learn some respect here. I am ATA and there are small differences in ATA. Everything we do is strickly by the book. The schools that you visited that were pittiful sounds like BS to me. IF they are like that then its the first 2 I have ever heard of. ATA is much like the military you do it right or you don't do ti at all. Our 2 instructors are WTF switching to ATA and they say that there are some small differences too. You can walk into any ATA school get trained and go to anohter ATA school anywhere in the world and nothing will change, everything is the same. We use to have 3 instructors but one gave up everything he owned to live with the monks in China to teach 24/7. Now we have 2 that have been in the junior olympics and are training for the olympics. I am pridefull to be apart of the ATA team.
Iceman06, Sorry, didn't mean to get your knickers in a bunch. Let me straighten some things out. ATA is no different than WTF, that is, having it's fair share of good and bad points/schools/students. I, as stated, were quite familiar with ATA in Korea...and they were a spot on programme. The schols that I visited, well, were not up to calibre that I saw while in Korea. Then again, I have since visited other WTF and ITF schools, and I would rank them similarly, but since this thread was geared towards ATA, I only listed my experience in this regard. I've found only a handful of 'qualified' instructors lately, but I'll admit I have not visited a slew of schools either. Maybe my criteria is higher than yours. As for the ATA visit. If I remember right, they came in 2000, and demonstrated at a few universities and local events. They performed skits with Pokemon characters (dressed up as), and some others. I will say this, they were talented individuals. While running into them on several occasions, they (the few that I spoke with, not on a whole) gave off an air of superiority. However, the tag-a-longs were quite nice and we chatted for some time. On their last leg of the trip they visited Kyeonghee University. This university is Korea's 1st/2nd ranked uni. for TKD studies, and their demo. obviously was stunning. I did see some changes in demeanor from some of the participants after this, BS? No. Bad? No. I will be the first to list deficiencies in WTF, and I hear them all the time from others (who shan't be WTF players). No worries. I've also run into my fair share of masters (one's that should be held to higher standards, and who look<ed> down on ATA while they visited) who are...how do I say...snooty. While in Korea, I judged ATA students for their belt tests (yes, a WTF player testing ATA students...dunno the 'legality,' but I did it) and was quite happy with their output. Cheers, DH
Hey cool iceman06, another ATA person, there doesn't seem to be that many on this board. I am also in the ATA, what region are you from and what rank are you? I have personally had a very good experience with the ATA, a reason why I am still in it. I would have to agree that it is nice the way everything is standardized, if you go on vacations or business trips, you can train at a different school and know that they teach the same material.
With all due respect iceman06, I don't think anyone has been disrespectfull to you or the ATA. All you are hearing about are experiences with the ATA or the results of others research on the ATA. Having some members of the Jr. Olympic team, while very nice, doesn't mean that the org. on the whole is worth anything. Think about this. And just because there are WTF swithching to ATA, big deal, these are from what I gather, are instructors that make their living teaching TKD, not strict Joe Common Man who just wants to train. From what I can see, the ATA charges very high prices, requires multi-year contracts, guarantees a BB in a certain amount of time, requires students to buy ATA licensed uniforms and supplies, and ties advanced rank to the number of students that you recrute. They require that you attend ATA seminars and tourneys. Non-ATA are not allowed to attend ATA events, and ATA members are encouraged to not attend open events. The proprietary forms tought by the ATA are in general not recongnised by the USTU and thus limit the aspiring ATA TKDest chances of getting a college schlorship for being on a collegate TKD team. I cannot understand why ATA members brag about the portability of ATA membership from one school to another. I'm going to be moving to a different state and it remains to be seen if I can find an independent school that is in sync whith what I already know. I look forward to learning new techniques and way of doing things. There are TKD schools all over this country, no matter what style you know, there is always going to be a place where you can train, so what if you have to learn a new style. If you like the ATA I'm happy for you but get yourself some thicker skin old buddy. We are adults here.
. First let me say that I am in no way mad about this, I was laughing while reading it. Saying that about ATA is like sayign the US Marines are lazy and no nothing about war. Sure there are a couple of individuals but I can't speak for them. I can speak for the ppl in ATA that I see try and take things serious. If you think the ATA is a joke then you should come see a real ATA school because the ones you claim to have seen don't sound like ATA to me.
Where do you get your information. Have members on the Jr. Olympic team is great and ATA as a whole must be doing something right. ATA charges the same as the WTF school we have in town. 60 bucks a month. Only differences is that we allow our students to come everyday of the week if they want without any extra charge. Unlike the other school to come 5 days a week is 100 bucks a month. Multi-year contracts.............thats a new one. We give 2 free lessons. You can sign up for 3, 6 or 12 months. THe only thing we require is to buy your uniform, which I might add is covered in the first month. So you can look at it as you just bought a uniform for 60 bucks and took a month of class for free. Or you paid your first month and got a uniform free. We are not required to attend ATA tourn. Perfect example, we had one today in Memphis TN, did we go? No, only the students that wanted to go went. We didn't feel like we should be going to one his early considering all 3 of the WTF instructors now have jobs at our ATA school and are working on converting. We promise no BB in a certain amount of time, we promise that if you qualify that in 8 months you can get certified to teach but in 8 months you are not a BB yet. There are 9 belts, we test every 3 months. For students that learn fast and we feel that they have LEARNED their 1 step and form then we will test them 2 times every month. And yes only ATA students can go to ATA tourn. and I am glad its that way. If I wasn't in a club I wouldn't want to go to their get togethers, I would undersand that I am not apart of that instead of whinning about it. You wanna go to a great tourn. then you have to join the best to get in is what I say.
I can see where you are coming from with learning new techniques from different styles, I am actually looking in to start training in a new style. But there can be people out there that want to keep learning what they have started and having a portable membership allows them to do that.
[With all due respect iceman06, I don't think anyone has been disrespectfull to you or the ATA. All you are hearing about are experiences with the ATA or the results of others research on the ATA.] I have to agree with this Iceman, so far everyone is just calling it as they see it. As with all large organizations, you will see a lot of differences in how schools are run, and the quality of the students and instructors. [Having some members of the Jr. Olympic team, while very nice, doesn't mean that the org. on the whole is worth anything. Think about this.] I agree with this as well... while it speaks of the talent of that competitor, it does not mean that all ATA'ers are Olympic quality. [From what I can see, the ATA charges very high prices, requires multi-year contracts, guarantees a BB in a certain amount of time, requires students to buy ATA licensed uniforms and supplies, and ties advanced rank to the number of students that you recrute.] I'm going to hit these separately... High Prices: all schools are independently owned - the ATA does not own any schools. Therefore, some instructors do charge high rates, and many charge very fair rates, and some do not charge at all. Multi-Year Contracts: This is becoming the norm for many martial arts schools. This is following the model used for years in the health club business. But, again - not all ATA schools use or require contracts. Black Belt in certain amount of time: This is simply not true. Many ATA schools have a Black Belt Club, and typically this club uses a two year payment contract for the student. It DOES NOT guarantee a black belt at the end of the contract. The Black Belt Club usually offers additional classes, and an early introduction to the weapons taught at black belt level. ATA Merchandise/Gear: The ATA does sell gear at wholesale pricing to school owners. You are not required to buy from the school - unless that instructor chooses to have that policy. I can buy ATA gear and uniforms for less than I can buy from AWMA or Century. Advanced Rank: This is true. In order to advance past fourth degree you are expected to be a certified instructor with XX students, or considerable time in rank. [They require that you attend ATA seminars and tourneys. Non-ATA are not allowed to attend ATA events, and ATA members are encouraged to not attend open events.] While you are not required to attend ATA seminars or tournaments, it is encouraged. Mind you this is not high-pressure encouragement. I encourage people to attend tournaments so they can see what's out there beyond their own school and training partners. ATA events are closed events - this is true. By only allowing ATA members to attend ATA tournaments, you are afforded a more level playing field. Judges must be certified and have knowledge of the material. All competitors will be doing ATA forms. All sparring is by ATA rules. As for open tournaments... the organization has no rule against attending open events, I know a high ranking master that has been known to encourage people to compete in open events. [The proprietary forms tought by the ATA are in general not recongnised by the USTU and thus limit the aspiring ATA TKDest chances of getting a college schlorship for being on a collegate TKD team.] Well... the ATA offers college scholarships. And it would stand to reason that a talented TKD'er, whether ATA, ITF, or WTF could transition over and learn new material - if they were interested in being on a collegiate team. [I cannot understand why ATA members brag about the portability of ATA membership from one school to another.] What's not to brag about...? You spend years training in a style, earn rank, but one day have to move. You find a new school, but even though the forms are the same, the entire philosophy of the school is different. Wouldn't it be nice to know that there was a place you could go, and felt like you belonged? [I look forward to learning new techniques and way of doing things. There are TKD schools all over this country, no matter what style you know, there is always going to be a place where you can train, so what if you have to learn a new style.] Learning a new style is always a challenge, but if I have to learn something new, I'd prefer it not be TKD all over again. Besides... I attended a few independent schools while in college and the first few weeks always resulted in having to "prove" yourself to your training partners. [If you like the ATA I'm happy for you but get yourself some thicker skin old buddy. We are adults here.] We are adults, and that's one reason I'm replying. The ATA does some things really well, and others things not so well. The secret is to choose something you like, enjoy what you do - and don't worry too much about what everyone else thinks. Matt White
OK Matt, I think we have covered the ATA in enough detail for everyone to be happy. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the ATA or any other org. I commend the loyal ness of the ATA folks. It's just that most of the defenders of the ATA act like kool aid drinkers, as I'm sure there are many fine ATA mambers out there. Me personally, I'm a TKD hobbiest. I want to get the most for my time and money and I don't want to be told where to buy my uniforms and etc... And I really do not like contracts at all. My school puts out terrific Martial Artists (I'm not one of them) and my SBN is a 6 DAN former AAU sparring champion and we don't have contracts. If you think about it though, the origional poster basically asked (in so many words) if the ATA in the US has a good reputation or not. Given that the person asking the question is a seasoned WTF instructor with alot of tourney experience in Korea, do you think that this person would be happy as a student in the average ATA school in the US?
[OK Matt, I think we have covered the ATA in enough detail for everyone to be happy.] Are you sure... I can go on... [Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the ATA or any other org. I commend the loyal ness of the ATA folks. It's just that most of the defenders of the ATA act like kool aid drinkers, as I'm sure there are many fine ATA mambers out there.] Kool-aid drinkers? Wow, that's a bit harsh. What you are finding is that people that put a lot of effort into what they do will defend their actions. [Me personally, I'm a TKD hobbiest.] As am I, as are most of the martial artists in the U.S. [I want to get the most for my time and money and I don't want to be told where to buy my uniforms and etc...] You know... when I think about it, the WTF school I trained with insisted I buy my uniform from them, the Kyokushin Karate school I trained with in college insisted I buy my uniform from them. Things aren't so different out there. [And I really do not like contracts at all. My school puts out terrific Martial Artists (I'm not one of them) and my SBN is a 6 DAN former AAU sparring champion and we don't have contracts.] For what it's worth, I don't like contracts either. I know there can be beneifts to instructor and student - but I have seen people burned when they try and get out. I do not use contracts with my students. [If you think about it though, the origional poster basically asked (in so many words) if the ATA in the US has a good reputation or not. Given that the person asking the question is a seasoned WTF instructor with alot of tourney experience in Korea, do you think that this person would be happy as a student in the average ATA school in the US?] I am aware of the original intent of the thread. But the real question is... "Given that the person asking the question is a seasoned WTF instructor with alot of tourney experience in Korea, do you think that this person would be happy as a student in the average *insert your choice of martial arts here* school in the US?" I think the answer to that question should be obvious. In my experience, a martial artist of this caliber searches out training partners - not necessarily schools to join. Apparently I have come off a bit strong on this topic. But I am a taekwondo instructor, and run an ATA school in central Iowa. I run a good program, and charge more than fair prices for classes, uniforms, gear, etc. My main priority is earning enough money to pay my overhead, and continue to provide a place for my students to train. I have a full-time job, as do the instructors that assist in this endeavor. And for what it's worth, there are a lot of schools like this across the country. Matt White
