Are UK Police not allowed to hit a suspect who's assaulting them?

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by EdiSco, Oct 26, 2018.

  1. EdiSco

    EdiSco Likes his anonymity

    I'm just wondering why the officers don't hit the suspect back at all in this video. The other bigger officer wastes time getting pepper spray out, seriously? In america he would've been shot 15 times before he even attempted to get out of the car.

    Really badly handled. There were so many opportunities to disable the suspect. He was obviously on drugs - had unusual strength for his size.

    Warning: upsetting footage but no bad language. Was a UK TV show clip.
    Starts at 3:20:

     
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Yes they are allowed but as often as not they don’t

    With single cuff control it is often better to subdue than strike, although I would have fed him one myself in this circumstance. A transition to LVNR/RNC was open too

    Pepper spray (more accurately OC spray with the UK) isn’t “messing around” it’s often a way to quickly end a protracted struggle

    This video highlight yet again how a motivated individual can fight off half assed techniques and how difficult restraining someone who doesn’t want to be restrained. LEO training for hands on is woefully inadequate (UK and elsewhere) and it is a constant source of irritation to me that officers simply refuse to invest in their own training and development
     
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  3. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian


    Well thankfully for this guy, it didn't happen in America.
    It concerns me that the approach you instantly seem to favour is escalating an already dangerous situation by either punching the suspect, or shooting him dead.

    The police do an (often thankless) job, and it's easy to sit back in your chair and criticise events from the safety of your computer desk.

    Fully agree with this.
     
  4. EdiSco

    EdiSco Likes his anonymity

    Well, after he stabs the officer in the face with god knows what (almost immediately after getting out of the car), I would say an offensive response was warranted.

    My comment about getting shot 15 times in America was obviously an exaggeration/sarcasm.

    I'm NOT criticizing the police officers in the video at all. I'm just wondering what the police policies are in regards to this issue. These are after all highly trained professionals and experts who are EXPECTED to deal with violent suspects often on drugs/drunk and with mental health issues. You'd think they'd get better training as part of their job. It could've been worse. The Officer could've lost an eye or worse...

    I would say it's more than adequate (a bit too much perhaps) in America and other parts of the world where they care less about criminals' "Human Rights" ...
     
  5. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Hence the attempted OC spray deployment.
    Consider that the officer already had him partially restrained, I can see why they took the steps to control him, rather than strike him.

    Shot 20 times:
    Police shoot unarmed black man 20 times in his grandparents' backyard after thinking his phone was a gun

    Shot 19 times:
    Shooting of Amadou Diallo - Wikipedia

    Not such an exageration.

    Clearly, you were criticising:-
    As Hannibal has pointed out - control and restraint training is difficult to apply against a resisting suspect, and many officers don't further their own development in this area.
    Would that there were more funding to provide extra training in this for officers on a regular basis - but then we have to consider are we taking officers off the street to train, or are we expecting them to train in their own time?

    Human Rights have to apply to everyone - no matter how distasteful a person they are, or how heinous their crime - otherwise Human Rights are not worth the paper they are written on.
     
  6. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    It’s far from adequate in the US which is why they shoot so often
     
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  7. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    I’ve trained with a number of police officers over the years , and unfortunately it’s very clear that what h2h training they do get is wholly inadequate/ineffective.
    Case in point , I currently train with a pc in aiki, who I know couldn’t even come close to subduing me without using her baton or oc , I don’t say this in a boastful way , just I can see under pressure nothing particularly useful “pops out” as it were.
    If it were to me , this is probably the single biggest area I’d look at reviewing as these guys put their lives on the line every single shift in the face of an increasingly violent criminal class.
     
  8. EdiSco

    EdiSco Likes his anonymity

    Exactly! You'd think they ought to get better, more higher quality h2h training here in UK than elsewhere since most police here don't carry guns. And they shouldn't have to pay for it from their own pocket either. That's just silly. It's their job.
     
  9. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Well...as a 14 stone man I know I'd struggle to make you do something you didn't want to do so I wouldn't hold that against her.

    Surely having to tackle units like you is exactly why officers are issued with batons and oc spray? :)
     
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  10. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    I have to give her respect as she always picks me out to train with , I think she recognises her short falls.
    My point was more , when she’s under pressure and things aren’t working there’s no “fall back” where her police training comes out , whereas , I’ve instinctively thrown punches and kicks in similar positions.
     
  11. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award


    Minor point, the officers were using Cs spray not pepper spray, Iirc most forces in the UK have moved away from CS as it has several drawbacks, which might mean this clip is quite old.

    Either way, holding someone down who doesn't want to be held down, is a very hard skill to get good at, having cameras present, and the risk of a complaint put against you, means strikes generally get used less then other methods, the UK police are generally held to a higher standard then the US, which is a good thing.
     
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  12. Shmook

    Shmook Valued Member

    Our unarmed training here is terrible. It's a few days during initial training, and then a 1 day yearly refresher.

    Woeful.

    Also, if you can justify it later, you can use whatever force needed.

    Incidentally, that cop was stabbed with a key. Edit, This is an old clip.

    If you weren't there, it's hard to criticise the officers actions.
     
  13. EdiSco

    EdiSco Likes his anonymity

    Wow....just wow......

    Surely, you routinely practice/train how to restrain/arrest suspects and defend against basic strikes?
     
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  14. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    No but you don’t in the US and Canada either - outside of an annual requalification (which is a meaningless 3 hrs and basically a tick box for the department) you are on your own
     
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  15. Shmook

    Shmook Valued Member

    Nope. The only option it to train outside of work in something else and more effective than a home-office approved wristlock that you cannot apply on a noncompliance customer.
     
  16. EdiSco

    EdiSco Likes his anonymity

    But the Police in USA and Canada carry nice big guns...

    In all honesty though, I wouldn't like to see normal police officers with guns in UK. We do have very good armed response police force in the UK.

    The problem is probably budget related. They probably can't afford to provide adequate h2h training in terms of both money and police time.
     
  17. Shmook

    Shmook Valued Member

    That, and politicians don't care if cops get injured.

    Our armed response are good, but outside of major metropolitan areas they are woefully understaffed. It would shock you if I could disclose how many are on duty in certain areas.
     
  18. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    Police uses the same Laws as everyone else when it comes to use of force ( necessary and reasonable, to save life/limb, protect property), much like in the thread about the burglars. The only difference is the handcuffing and CS Spray.

    Of course though, Police are under high scrutiny when it comes to violence. And the most popular used word is "excessive force".
    Even though Joe Bloggs would probably use more force than Police would and call it "justified".
     
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  19. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Had a WPC in class tonight and I was shocked at how woeful her technique and understanding was.
     
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  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Pretty much....
     
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