That page is an excellent resource, as is the entire ARMA website. The forum there is a repository of much experience which I visit several times a week. For those who maintian that "the West had no martial arts as good as those of the East", those manuals prove them dead wrong. Best regards, -Mark
That's awesome, thanks. Though I can't understand most of the words, even in the translated versions.
Yeah, like most specialized fields, martial arts have their own jargon. Here's a nice glossary that shows what most of the German words mean, and has some pictures to show what the hell they're talking about. If you were wondering what a "zwerch" or what "nebenhut" is, that's the place to go. And of course, you can always ask me what stuff is too, and I'll try to give a decent answer. Also, there is an article page which gives you a basic idea of what people are up to. It ranges from excellent practical advice to personal opinion on matters related to Historical Swordsmanship. Lots of great stuff to read there. Best regards, -Mark
I just want to shime in about ARMA. Take everything you read on their site and forums with a huge grain of salt. I know a few ARMAteers and my experience with them has been decent, but I am personally aquantied with people who have had huge clashes with ARMA about matters of interpetation. Oh and watch any ARMAteer's videos on test cutting. Those tend to amuse me.
The thing about ARMA is that it's more of a collection of individuals than a monolithic organization. You'll find those in ARMA whose scholarship is solid, and others that are less so, much like any other group of MAists. The individual study groups are independant, so interpretations can vary a bit even between groups within ARMA. Having verbal clashes about technique is kind of silly. If you need to prove it, strap on some gear and have at it. It won't be prefect, but it will give an idea if folks know what they're talking about, and if you can make it work at speed against a resisting opponent (especially one that dislikes you ), then you're probably on the right track. That being said, I'm not a member of ARMA, but I repsect them for the strides they've made. John Clements (love him or hate him) has probably done more for the spread of WMA than most. The guys from AEMMA in Toronto have done a lot, too. ARMA has some fine swordsmen, and for me, that counts for a lot. The thing is, none of us have to use swordsmanship for real. Getting bent out of shape over techniques is somewhat pointless. Let everyone do their own research, and wish them the best. I'm sure that the best interpretations will eventually become standard. In the face of that inexorable progress, let's just all get along and help each other out where we can, and train like the obsessed. Best regards, -Mark
Mark Let me start by stating that although I am a long time member of ARMA I do not speak for ARMA or any of its members. I offer only my personal opinion. Actually, ARMA is an extremely tight organization in regard to its historical martial interpretations, its focus on its goals, and its fellowship among its members. ARMA study groups do have a lot of freedom in how they run. However, ARMA study groups also use a core set of drills, tools, and practice routines and must closely follow the ARMA Method of Study (http://www.thearma.org/methods.htm). ARMA study groups and members keep in very close contact with John Clements, the director of ARMA, and with each other. If it appears that ARMA is a somewhat lose organization it might be because about least 80% of our communications about interpretations are kept private to the organization. In general, our members do not do a lot of posting on other forums. This has been a corner stone of how ARMA works. All ARMA members are free and welcome to make interpretations. All that is asked of them by John Clements and other ARMA members is that they back it up in actual sparring. ARMA says that an interpretation must be historically valid and marital sound. In other words, an interpretation must not only closely follow the words of a historical master it must also work against an adversary who is resisting with speed and energy. If a member follows the words of a historical master but still get hit then we assume that they were not understanding the words of the master. It is a simple process that quickly does away with any false assumptions. That is why ARMA's interpretations, which have not be published yet, are generations ahead of what is being done in other groups.
Since we are in the process of reconstructing our lost Renaissance Martial Arts (RMA) everyone should take what they read about them with a grain of salt, maybe even a lump of salt. But do read everything on the ARMA web site. Then compare it to what you read elsewhere on the internet and ask yourself, "How would I train today if I had to fight for my life with a sword next month?" I am sure that is very true. That is because ARMA is focused on reconstructing our lost Renaissance Martial Arts (RMA) are as true combat arts. ARMA does not engage in stage fighting, role playing, or dress up. We train as if we must use these arts to fight for our lives. You won't see us doing silly stuff like standing in what I call "Lazy Vom Tag", where the sword is laid upon one's shoulder and neck (please don't do that with a sharp sword!!!!!!!!!!!). Nor will you see us hacking up our edges like almost all other groups do. That is why ARMA's interpretation is respected by people like Matt Larsen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Larsen), the Commandant of the US Army Combatives School. Since almost all of the test cutting videos on the ARMA web site feature John Clements I can only guess that it is he who has amused you. In light of your own videos posted on the Internet I find it very amusing that you are amused by John Clements making a nice clean cut through 3.5 inches bamboo with a dull sword. To get a better idea of what John Clements and ARMA is truely about I suggest that you attend his public longsword class at the upcoming ARMA International event (http://www.armanorthhouston.org/international-event-2007.htm) in August, 2007.
I have the Hans Talhoffer Medieval Combat, translated and edited by Mark Rector. For an early book and manuel it was and is a good one. I find the shoes to be interesting, talk about something that really could be a problem with what we do in todays art of stepping on the feet and immoblizing that way. No ability to move and you would take the brunt and unable to move. HMMM Good thread, I will participate in it, it is one of my particular likes along with the art of FMA today. One of the reasons I like FMA is because it is so close in many aspects to the MA of our western culture... It is one that has much going for it and you can incorporate both into one. Heck the Portuguese and Spanish did. Some even mention the sword arts of a famous Swordsman in Japan as coming by way of the Portuguese when they came to the Islands of Japan in the time that Miyamoto Musashi was changing his fighting skills into the art of two swords, which was adopted by "Nito ryu" This was a time of much change for the Japanese as shortly after that, they closed the Islands down so no one but the Dutch could trade with them. Hmmmm What I have mentioned is by way of what I have read. I of course do not know this all to be exactly true, but it has a favorable ring to it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people Interesting information. Gary
And if they are so far beyond what other groups are doing then why arent they being published and shared with the community at large instead of still publishing the two now outdated books Clements published ages ago? ive been spoken to by my Fechmeister about being lazy, so I dont rest my sword against my body, but that is because takes more time to strike from that postion than at a more ready one. You dont have to worry about even the most keenest of blades cutting into you unless you give it either large amount of percussive force or some lateral motion. And in anycase I hold vom Tag rather low. Regardless of the fact that several Reneisance masters advocate using the edge for hard parries, Silver comes instantly to mind. Well I have seen some Clement's test cutting and I was greatly amused, mostly because the ones I have seen were of him, hopefully on purpose, destroying a sword in the process. But that is beside the point. I am refering to other ARMAteers who in the process of cutting use such fasl timing to do so and cut so far past where they need to that they would open themselves up for nachreisen if they were actually fighting instead of cutting something inanimate. And I would be thrilled to attend that event but I will be doing my AIT for the Army during that time in Maryland. Now I will say that I do in general respect ARMA and its members, and I do occaisonly agree with Clements veiwpoints. And I am also very sick of some peoples rabid devotion to knocking down ARMA, even when they have legitimate complaints. That is not to say that I agree with everything ARMA spouts, infact there is much that makes me question some of the member's intelligence, but I am sure that the same could be said about me. And this is all because I am a member of a myspace group run by an ARMAteer and have spoken, in a manner of speaking, with him and the other members of ARMA there. They way you guys do things are somtimes very different from how I do things of how I think they should be done, but that is kind of beauty of HEMA. Especialy now that, baring a few expections, most differences between all the various groups and their interpetations on the same masters are most minor things. However I have this nagging suspcion that all the manuals are in fact just a huge joke on us and that most of the techniques arent just to look cool.
John Clements is currently working on 3 books, I think one of his books might be published later in the years. A number of other ARMA scholars are also working on books. Do keep in mind that ARMA has probably published more books than any other group (Chivalry Bookshelf is a publisher, not a group). Books by ARMA members and consultants include: Sydney Anglo, The Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe. John Clements, Medieval Swordsmanship John Clements, Renaissance Swordsmanship Thomas Green, Martial Arts of the World: An Encyclopedia. David Lindholm & Peter Svärd. Sigmund Ringeck's Knightly Art of the Longsword. David Lindholm & Peter Svärd. Knightly Arts of Combat. David Lindholm, Fighting with the Quarterstaff Jason Vail, Medieval and Renaissance Dagger Combat. Grzegorz Zabinski, with Bartlomiej Walczak. The Codex Wallerstein Well, anytime a sharp blade is near my neck I'm going worry about it. Anyway, in the low Vom Tag in front of the shoulder one's hands and arms become very open targets. A number of ARMA members who have sparred people holding the sword low have reported that after hitting a person on the hands/arms about 10 times in a row that the person will switch to over the shoulder. By the way, who is you Fechmeister? In ARMA we have always used the edge to make displacements/parries. However, in ARMA's interpretations such edge displacements impact the flat of the adversary's blade rather than their edge. John Clements and the rest of the ARMA members have never found no martially sound reason for bashing our edges directly into the edge of the adversary's blade. A number of AMRA members study Silver without ever having to perform an edge-on-edge hack. There is an old video of John in which a sword broke while cutting bamboo. At the ARMA International Even in 2003 I have also watched John perform a number of sword destruction tests on armor in front of the swordmaker. There test provide us with very good info - - - but they are heartbreaking! :cry: Maybe another year. Good luck with the training and thanks for your service. Overy the past 7 or 8 years we have become very use to the rabid attacks. The past two weeks have been quite silly on the SFI forum with so many ARMA flames. We really got a kick out of the guy who got upset at an ARMA member because the ARMA member did not not refer to him as "Mr". By the way, George Hill who started most of the recent ARMA flames on SFI is an ex-ARMA member who was kicked out of ARMA after only one month for bad behavior. A number of ARMA members jokingly refer to George as "Napoleon Dynamite". May I ask who are they? A few months ago I might have agreed with you. However, after attending the WMAW 2006 Event this past fall I have no doubts that what ARMA does is very different from what most groups do. Before the event I thought ARMA was a generation ahead of the other groups. After the event I now know that ARMA is several generations ahead. The very few people that truely impressed me include (but limited to) Rob Lovett of the The Exiles and Tobler. I have enjoyed the conversation.
Oh....any hints on what his books will be about? that brings up the question of what is low and what is high. My hands are usually some where between my shoulders and waist *dons armor* Hugh Knight and that is exactly what I mean. Usually there will be no edge to edge contact, but my main complaint is the emphasis on how important it is to NOT have any edge to edge contact. My personal veiw is if the edges contact eachother fine, better the sword than my flesh, if not even better now my sword is still sharp. that is one of the videos I was refering to. I just strike me as Mr. Clements getting to over zealous and probably just screwing around rather an indication of him doing cutting in a serious manner. Thanks...I think. I still adjusting to the fact that I will be serving, and dont realy think that I need any thanks, yet. And I dont know how good the odds of me attending will be, as I will be using as much of my leave to be visting museums and examining swords, taking measurements and such, but if I end up in Texas I would be foolish not to attend. Two from Georgia, Ryan and agarwaen the rest escape my memory. Sdaly the group is currently in one of its "flame idiots for being idiots" phases IN what way is the way ARMA does things different? AS have I. While I usually start off confrontational, it has a purpose. And that purpose is to draw out the people who I might have offended so I can actualy get the real information, or at least another veiwpoint.
Just as an aside, I have the above books (I snipped out the ones I don't have), and they are truly excellent. Jay Vail's dagger book is particularly well done. As for Vom Tag, I hold it over my shoulder, with the lead hand at about ear level, pommel in front of the shoulder, angled 45 degrees back. I prefer the "horizontal" Ochs, FWIW, thanks to Tobler and the Ochs group's DVD. I was skeptical at first, having been taught "vertical" Ochs. The weak side takes a bit getting used to, that's for sure. I've been working with it for about 3 or 4 months, and find it to work better for me. Best regards, -Mark
Cudgel Oh....any hints on what his books will be about? I think one is on the history of rapier but I really don't know any details about them other than they are in progress. My hands are usually some where between my shoulders and waist Nice targets! Hugh Knight Ok, I don't know him personally but I do know of him and sometimes visit his Yahoo group site. Usually there will be no edge to edge contact, but my main complaint is the emphasis on how important it is to NOT have any edge to edge contact. Edge-to-edge to us in ARMA means two blades coming together head-on at hight speed which can result in one blade biting into the other. In many edge-to-flat displacements/parries the edges may be the first parts of the blades to contact each other but the majority of the force will still be taken by the flat of one blade. Edge-to-edge is also not an issue when displacing a thrust since the edges are not coming together at high speed. The emphasis put on not hacking our edges is because nicks, especially deeps ones, greatly reduce the cutting abilities of a blade and make the blade weak. Many people don't understand this emphasis because they don't test the effects of hard, high speed edge-to-edge impacts on sharp blades. Seeing is believing! Practicing with blunts at slow speed will produce small nicks but not nicks deep enough to show what would happen in a real fight. One very important thing to note is that following the interpretations of John Clements and other ARMA members edge hacking is not so much something we don't do as it something that just doesn't happen. It is not something we have to think about when fighting. On the other hand, at the WMAW 2006 Event I was completely blown away by how much edge hacking was taking place. Before the event I thought edge hacking was something that some people did sometimes. I now understand that edge hacking is something that many people do all the time. I also came to understand that a number of factors & interpretations play a hand in the vast amount of edge hacking I observed at the event, such as cutting from the low (lazy) Vom Tag, a heavy focuse on binding rather actually cutting the adversary, doing everything a slow speed,thus there is no realistic hight speed impacts that causes the really damaging nicks, etc. In other words, to not edge hack would require major changes in many interpretations. My personal veiw is if the edges contact each other fine, better the sword than my flesh, if not even better now my sword is still sharp. Soldiers are very often required to lay with their weapons in the mud in order to stay alive. However, the Army does not teach soldiers to stick their weapons in mud, rather they teach soldiers to keep their weapons as clean as possible because their lives depend upon their weapons. Apply the same logic to swords - in the past soldiers may have had to take a hard edge hack to stay alive, but I am sure they wanted to keep their weapons in the best condition possible because their lives depended upon it. that is one of the videos I was refering to. I just strike me as Mr. Clements getting to over zealous and probably just screwing around rather an indication of him doing cutting in a serious manner. When one break a blade they can either cry about it or laugh about it. Two from Georgia, Ryan and agarwaen the rest escape my memory. I know of Ryan but I have yet to meet him. IN what way is the way ARMA does things different? I know this sounds like a broken record but what makes ARMA different is that ARMA's focus is on recreating these lost arts as a combat system. This affects all of ARMA's interpretations - not only must an interpretation follow what a master says, it must also work at full speed and full engery against an adversary who is out to make it not work. This is also why ARMA does not take engage in role playing or re-enactment. All the best,
and In anycase I veiw von Tag as a guard of provacation. You are terribly exposed standing in it, and I would rather be comfortable and relaxed, relaxed muscles move faster than tense ones dontcha know. Sure I could stand with my lead hand at my ear and be comfortable. I could even stand with my sword over my head and be comfortable, but why bother? And besides the von Danzig fechtbuch depcits von Tag being held with the hands below the shoulders.
Walking out to spar is all the provacation one actually needs. Given all of the techniques that can be executed from Vom Tag, including all of the master cuts, one really should not feel exposed in that guard. There is a balance between being relaxed and being tense. Too much of one or the other is not good. On the ARMA (http://www.thearma.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22257&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15) forum John Clements noted that if you interpret the von Danzig image of that vom Tag literally then you must also interpret all the von Danzig images literally too, including positions of the body, feet, hands, heads, etc. Those images show the right Ochs guard with the sword held over the head and the Pflug guard with the hilt held behind the hip. So are you holding these guards are shown in the vom Tag images? LOTS of test cutting and heavy sparring with speed and power have shown use that holding the sword in front of the chest is just not martially sound. In our experience this becomes very clearer to a person after they receive several good hits on their left forearm and they are hit upside the head each time they throw a Zornhau. Good luck with your training.
How interesting. This gives me something to ponder greatly. Although I still feel that sufficient power could be generated from a lower version of von Tag and that it is not unnecessarily exposed. Hopefully sometime in the future we will have the opportunity to cross foam,wood or steel.
