Ancient Hebrew biblical martial arts!

You've already said the wingate institute doesn't authenticate an art.

So why wouldn't they?

KSW being taught as something else, is exactly what's being done all over the world.

Also KSW is literally hapkido being taught with a fake back story anyway.

Also KSW have no legal basis for stopping anyone doing that.

 

This is also based on my understanding of the KSW QAP rules and also clauses 13.1.1 and 13.1.4 of their school owners agreement.

Wingate doesn't authentic the claims about the history. For example, Wingate doesn't rule whether or not Abir is mentioned in the Talmud or whether not Yemenite Jews in a certain region transmitted it. They can read ancient and modern Hebrew just like any Israeli can but what "those" sources say isn't of interest to them.

Wingate receives a basic application with a basic set of information about the applicant and decide whether or not they provide a certain service or not based on their own interest. Yet, by putting their name on something they are liable for any fraudulent elements. For example, there are KSW schools already here in Israel with instructors already certified by Wingate prior to Abir having instructors certified. It would not be in their interest to certify Abir if all it was is KSW, based on the application made by Abir, when they already have a relationship with KSW instructors here in Israel.

Also, KSW instructors here in Israel would be livid about someone just taking KSW and putting a kippa on it and making it out to be something else with no connection to KSW. There is also more money in teaching KSW as KSW in Israel than there is changing its name and trying to sell it as an ancient Jewish fighting system. (For example, Israeli law requires that such organizations need to be attached to bigger organizations or be listed as a particular type of not for profit organization. Being attached to a larger body international organization is way cheaper and more reasonable. It is also easier to get insurance with connections to outside organizations than to start one internally.) Because so many people here know Hebrew and because checking sources would take less than 10 minutes and making phone calls to those who wrote letters or to supposed family members something at that level would be easily debunked within a short time.

Further, the bigger problem comes in the fact that there are Jewish sources supporting the information about Abir and some knowledgably people in the Torah based world who back up the claims about it.

Concerning KSW's connection to hapkido. From the official WKSA web-page, "Kuk Sool Won™ is a systematic study of all of the traditional fighting arts, which together comprise the martial arts history of Korea." That pretty much spells it out right there as a hybrid of other Korean traditional fighting arts. If there is another back story being taught away from their international web-site about it I wouldn't know. Also, assuming that the WKSA is the most authoritative KSW body. Yet, this would also depend on how familiar Koreans are with their own history and how accessible it is to them. If what you say is true it could be that in Korea they have already publically debunked any false claims about KSW.

 

Looks like I'll have to be emailing the wingate institute on what they actually look at, because as you say they don't authenticate an art, so they wouldn't know or care about any "renamed art", if so, your point doesn't stand.

KSW is widely known to be a Hapkido varient. Which literally everyone knows.
So again your point doesn't stand.

 

Have you asked them?

 

From
Kuk Sool Won - Wikipedia

"Also according to Suh in the Kuk Sool Won Textbook: Volume 1 (Suh 1993:33) "Another of Suh's influential teachers was Choi Yong-Sool, the founder of Korean Hapkido and a master of Korean tribal martial arts, as well." Oddly, Choi Yong-Sool never claimed to have studied native Korean "tribal arts" himself but rather claimed to have studied the Japanese system of Daito-ryu aikijujutsu having lived in Japan from age 8 to 42 during the Japanese colonial period (1911–1945). Interestingly Choi Yong-Sool and his students often referred to his art in its early years as yu sool (jujutsu) or yu kwon sool before settling on the name hapkido for the art.[14][15]

Suh is also known to have had associations with members of Kim Moo Hong's Shin Moo Kwan hapkido school in Seoul,[14] especially with people like Kim Woo Tak and other senior members who founded the Kuk Sool Kwan school of hapkido, predating Suh's own efforts."

 

Yes. I did a lot of independent research on the side into the issue. There have been a few KWS practitioners who have come to Abir classes before.

Before I even took an Abir class I even contacted someone who I knew was a former KSW student here in Israel to see what he could tell me.

 

Not a problem. You may want to also ask them what they would do if someone basically used the same techniques and methods from a art they previously taught and then repackaged it and presented it to Wingate as something that it is not for certification under their instructor's course.

In terms of KSW being a Hapkido variant, the information I found on their international web-site doesn't seem to deny that nor does it claim that KSW is something original. That is the point I was making. In terms of the Wiki information I saw that also. I don't know if that contradicts what I saw on their WW site, in some way it seems to confirm it.

Do KSW guys in Korea have a problem with KSW being a variant of Hapkido? If so why? What do Hapkido guys say? I ask because I am definitely not here to interpret some element of Korean history or culture. I am ignorant to their culture and history and I definitely can't read or understand the Korean language.

 

More to the point, what do you have to say about the various elements of Abir Qesheth which are obviously from Asian martial arts?

 

Actual Korean arts were wiped out in the most part during japan's occupation, the majority of hats around now, are repackaged Japanese arts, some with amazingly fake histories attached, schools branch of a billion times, and they all fall out with each other, all the time.
They probably don't care what a Jamaican rapper is doing with his school in israel, KSW has a lot of Ex very high grades kicking about doing similar things.

For a great example of the fake history thing, look at

Hwa Rang Do - Wikipedia

Which is another hapkido variety.

Re wingate, I'll be emailing them properly by the end if the week, so if they reply, I'll post it here.

 

Eva, as an example of how Korean arts splinter and get renamed often see here:

GM Timmerman - National Korean Martial Arts Association